To wonder why bystanders will ignore a crime?

[Maria53]

Tonight I reported an incident to the police. I heard a young girl screaming over and over again and shouting to be left alone. When I looked outside I saw she was being chased. Acting on autopilot I pulled on my jacket & went outside to investigate/potentially threaten the attacker with a police phone call.

When I got there 3 people walking by at the time were talking about it & the two people were gone. One said they had seen the girl being forcefully pushed to the ground.

Since Sarah Everard I think people in general are on high alert for this sort of thing. In Glasgow, where I am from, a woman named Moira Jones was murdered in a park. Later in court, bystanders said they had heard her screams as they walked past but did nothing - and regretted it bitterly.

When I was talking to my mum on the phone later after the attack, she said I shouldn't have gone to the street to investigate. AIBU to think people are likely to ignore a potentially serious crime due to fear? Or is there another reason for it?

Also this girl's screams were LOUD, I am stll shaken up thinking about it and no one else on the highly populated street had stepped out to look. Only these people walking past at the time.

Sorry, but those of you who wouldn't help are fooling yourselves if you think you meet the threshold to be good people. Your fear has twisted you. You are allowing evil to cause trauma and it's everybody's responsibility to stop that when they see it.
I'm amazed by these stories. The lady glassed, I hope you wear your scars with pride. The lady assaulted protecting a man from five other men. I would be proud to call you my sisters and fight beside you.

@StarCat2020

Have seen good examples of intervention in other countries. I wonder if some of the reluctance here is just embarrassment? I am 95% certain on this but under common law in England there is no legal duty to rescue or assist.

On the continent (civil law systems) there are more legal duties with regards to rescuing others.

There's no such thing as common law, but you're right to say there is no legal duty to rescue or assist. I read in a book once (though it was American) that legally the best thing to do is nothing, because if you do something and it ends up making a situation worse you could be sued.

@ProfessorSillyStuff

"And chosing not to put your own safety in risk isn't a moral failing. We are not all Marvel characters."

Yes, it is a moral failing. I am utterly disappointed that someone would spout this crap.

Stop acting out of fear people. It's the perpetrators that should be scared.

Acting out of fear is not the same as a "moral failing". Ridiculous statement.

@ProfessorSillyStuff

Sorry, but those of you who wouldn't help are fooling yourselves if you think you meet the threshold to be good people. Your fear has twisted you. You are allowing evil to cause trauma and it's everybody's responsibility to stop that when they see it. I'm amazed by these stories. The lady glassed, I hope you wear your scars with pride. The lady assaulted protecting a man from five other men. I would be proud to call you my sisters and fight beside you.

I take your point, but don't think self-preservation should be vilified.

Intervention is definitely the moral thing to do, yes. However, people have ended up dead from intervening in situations in which they are outnumbered or outgunned, and it's hard to tell who has a weapon unless you can actually see it. I am full of admiration for those who selflessly throw themselves into the fray to protect strangers, but a proportion of these do end up in the ground, and I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to evaluate risks versus benefits in these scenarios. In mine, I could have intervened and stopped a man being robbed. I also could have intervened and been stabbed to death in front of my young kids, leaving them motherless. The former is more likely than the latter, but the latter is still entirely possible. It's not worth the risk to me.

I have called 999 before after witnessing a man being held at knifepoint, but only once I got to a safe distance. The woman on the phone said that they'd had a lot of calls and already dispatched officers, so I do think bystanders will call for help a lot of the time.

@HamFisted
"There's no such thing as common law, but you're right to say there is no legal duty to rescue or assist. I read in a book once (though it was American) that legally the best thing to do is nothing, because if you do something and it ends up making a situation worse you could be sued."

You are right about common law, I assume the other poster meant case law? The bit about being sued doesnt really apply though, at least not in the UK. I mean, in theory someone could sue you (you can in theory sue anyone for anything) but they wouldnt have much of a case if you were helping in good faith. There is no legal precedent for punishing someone for, eg, providing first aid but get something wrong, and I doubt any judge would want to set that precedent. Obviously, if you're idea of "helping" is jumping up and down on someones head then it would be different I am sure. Where the "intervening" involved using physical violence then that might be different, my larger concern would be whether the police would be able to tell the difference between the bystander helping and the agressor than being sued though.

Actually, where physical force was needed by immediate concern would be getting beaten up because I am small. That is a legitimate concern. The legal ramifications in terms of being sued aren't really an issue though - deliberately so... www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/3/contents/enacted

There is such a thing as common law... Common law and civil law. Common law system is based on case law (it's really called that) and civil law/statutory law system is based based on statutes rather than judge decisions.

But yes. The legal difference in what you should do is big. But your protection is also different.

Further to the CPR. I don't think people realise how real cpr is and I honestly think that many people couldn't finish or shake it off afterwards. It's can be absolutely brutal. I luckily never had to because ambulances I called arrived quickly, but I saw a guy after he did and the look in his eyes said a lot. The person died even though he really tried.

Years ago I worked in a prison and was properly trained in how to descalate trouble.
I would, and have, intervened in several incidents in the community but always cautiously and with my own safety in mind.
I always taught my kids not to scream but to shout for help, screaming can be mistaken for high jinks, "help" is more directive, less likely to be ignored.
My daughter (in school uniform) was once assaulted by a man in a bus station, she jumped on the nearest bus and shouted "can someone help me please, this man is harassing me" and 5 blokes jumped off the bus to confront him and made him wait until the police arrived.

The video (about a third of the way down) and this article are highly interesting OP.

www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/14/swedish-social-experiment-shows-people-ignoring-domestic-abuse-in-a-lift

When I was a teenager I was violently attacked by a group of men (10+) at a small train station in a foreign city (work experience placement). It was the middle of the day and there were around 20 other people coming in and out of the station. No one helped me although I was screaming and crying for help. An elderly couple saw me as their train was passing through and they got off and pulled me onto the train. They called the police, three of the men were caught and it ended up going to trial about a year later.

I'm fully aware of the bystander effect. However if I see someone in trouble I ALWAYS step in to help, to my own detriment sometimes. I will never forget that terrifying feeling of being invisible to everyone but the attackers.

I was waiting for a bus before at 12:30pm. A woman came up and demanded money. I refused and said I had none. She then got very close to me, screaming abuse at me and she was that close to me, I could feel her spit hit my face!

Two men were there - one of whom was with his wife - and not one person helped me. When she eventually left me alone, one of the men said to me 'Bless her! She obviously has mental health issues.'

She came back and continued to scream abuse at me and it was only because 2 men in a car stopped to make sure that I was okay that left me alone.

From a legal standpoint the best thing to do is often nothing.

You won't get sued for walking by a fight. You might get sued if you intervene and cause damage. You might get prosecuted. Especially if it's not obvious who the victim is and who the aggressor is.

Emergency services don't like amateurs getting involved because for every time they help the situation there are others where it is made worse. If you're not trained to administer first aid, or physical restraints, or firefighting, it is likely that you won't do a very good job. An ambulance crew turning up on the scene would prefer one seriously injured casualty to several. Firefighters would prefer that a have-a-go-hero didn't go charging into a burning building when actually it was otherwise empty. As for the police, try seeing how happy they are when you TPAC/PIT a dangerous driver on the motorway.

Welldone ! I would do the same !
And I have done it !
I was in my car with my daughter and I saw a man attacking a woman I didn’t even think I turned my car round pulled up and got out of the car and shouted at the man to stop he was trying to drag her into a secluded ally way . As soon as I did this other people intervened as well I think I saved that woman from a beating !
My daughter was shocked and said I risked myself I disagree I was fine and I would do the same again ! X

Either they're scared, or just assume someone else will do it if there are several people there.

@apalledandshocked

That is why, if you ever need help, you should shout "fire" and not "help". People are more likely to not respond/notice "help" (it doesnt necessarily make them bad people, there are lots of reasons), but everyone is programmed (at a deep, subconcious level) to respond to "fire". Having seen what is going on, the decision to become involved then becomes a consious, moral one.

The people who refused to open their front door - when I was hammering on it because the semi attached to theirs was in flames - disproves this theory.

They didn't come out until there was a bloody great fire appliance parked outside their front window and a fireman bashing his way in. By which point, their roof space was already well alight.

Some people - a lot of people - just freeze like rabbits caught in headlights, whatever the situation, or pretend it isn't happening so that they don't have to think.

There's a huge list of ridiculous events I've ended up helping with, from car and bike accidents to illness, injuries and small children nearly getting killed. If I listed them, you'd think I were lying to sound like some sort of fucking superhero, but believe me, tights under a pair of knickers and a cape really isn't my style. Out of all of the events, I can only remember three occasions where somebody else helped. Most of the time, it's been people staring into space with their mouth open or watching passively.

However, I do look to see what threats or dangers there could be for me first. No point adding to casualties. And violent situations - sorry, no. I'll phone for help if I'm not visible. I'll shout deep and very, very loud if not visible. I'll help directly with first aid afterwards. But no, I'm not launching into becoming another person for paramedics to deal with.

Well done OP the world needs more people like you.
I'm an utter busybody so have got stuck into these sorts of situations several times.

It's not just crime that people ignore though is it.

I've seen a woman having an epileptic fit in a busy side road in London and me and my partner were the only people that stopped

A woman in our town intervened in a domestic and was stabbed to death leaving her young children without a mother.

I would be very wary of getting involved.

Why is there the automatic assumption that the person being chased is the victim and the people chasing her are the criminals? It could be the other way around. If you didn't witness what happened your intervention could mean that the criminal gets away. I would probably call the police though but I don't think I would intervene unless I knew exactly what happened.

Last time i was chasing someone stealing yet another charity tin, "stop thief" really wasn't what I was shouting😳
I wasn't wrong though. It takes a smackhead cunt to rob a hospic charity tin.

I want to add. I would never expect someone to try to stop him. I knew he wasn't armed from before, someone on a streeet wouldn't really know if he doesn't have a used needle or something. Even I wasn't planning on touching him, just trying to scare him into dropping the tin.

@skirk64

From a legal standpoint the best thing to do is often nothing.

You won't get sued for walking by a fight. You might get sued if you intervene and cause damage. You might get prosecuted. Especially if it's not obvious who the victim is and who the aggressor is.

Emergency services don't like amateurs getting involved because for every time they help the situation there are others where it is made worse. If you're not trained to administer first aid, or physical restraints, or firefighting, it is likely that you won't do a very good job. An ambulance crew turning up on the scene would prefer one seriously injured casualty to several. Firefighters would prefer that a have-a-go-hero didn't go charging into a burning building when actually it was otherwise empty. As for the police, try seeing how happy they are when you TPAC/PIT a dangerous driver on the motorway.

You are conflating lots of different things though... In terms of an actual fight - yes wading in and getting involved isnt likely to be the best thing, generally thats how fights get turned into brawls. Phoning the police is a good idea though - and still counts as an intervention. Obviously taking it upon youself to ram a dangerous driver off the road is stupid, and I dont think comes under the category of helping (and yes of COURSE the police would be unimpressed) In a medical emergency though - it is good to know what you are doing, but generally once someone gets to the stage of needing CPR you really cant make the situation any worse. Although as another poster said, the chances of actually saving someones life in that situation are slim and providing CPR can have a long lasting psycholigical effect. But you will NOT get sued for trying. Even if you did something against best practice (like restraining someone having a seizure, moving someone with spinal injuries*) and cause harm - there is absolutely no legal precedent for being sued/prosecuted as a member of the public.

Suggesting people are at a legal risk for helping someone else is wrong, at least in the UK.