To wonder why bystanders will ignore a crime?

[Maria53]

Tonight I reported an incident to the police. I heard a young girl screaming over and over again and shouting to be left alone. When I looked outside I saw she was being chased. Acting on autopilot I pulled on my jacket & went outside to investigate/potentially threaten the attacker with a police phone call.

When I got there 3 people walking by at the time were talking about it & the two people were gone. One said they had seen the girl being forcefully pushed to the ground.

Since Sarah Everard I think people in general are on high alert for this sort of thing. In Glasgow, where I am from, a woman named Moira Jones was murdered in a park. Later in court, bystanders said they had heard her screams as they walked past but did nothing - and regretted it bitterly.

When I was talking to my mum on the phone later after the attack, she said I shouldn't have gone to the street to investigate. AIBU to think people are likely to ignore a potentially serious crime due to fear? Or is there another reason for it?

Also this girl's screams were LOUD, I am stll shaken up thinking about it and no one else on the highly populated street had stepped out to look. Only these people walking past at the time.

It goes beyond assaults though.

I’ve got involved to check on people that have been laid out on the pavement or benches before (where it’s been obvious they’re not sleeping rough) where others have walked right past them.

Even if you want to assume that they’re down there because they’ve got paralytic with drink (rather than due to a medical incident), it doesn’t mean that there won’t be consequences for them.

Choking on their own vomit, hypothermia, the possibility of being robbed or just getting a kicking from some other pissed up idiots. Do they deserve any of that even if it is alcohol induced? Some people seem to think so.

Because sometimes an incident like this will be a set up. The screaming person might not be a victim, they could be an accomplice and then you get attacked/robbed when you come to help.

Intervening when there’s a crime in progress is very risky. That’s why people don’t do it.

I’m not saying it’s right. My brother laid in the road with a broken back whilst 10 cars drove up the pavement to get round him. But I guess they thought that it was a ruse and if they stopped to help him they could get carjacked by someone waiting out of sight.

I would be hesitant to get involved again. I intervened when I was at university in an incident and was glassed, I do think there's a lot of psychology behind it as well as a fear.

In that situation I would have called the police but I would not have done what you did. I do put my own safety first, I don't know if that makes me a bad person but if anything happened to me it would have a massive detrimental effect on my family who are my priority. My DH and his friend intervened in a DV situation on a night out and both the man and the woman turned on them.

I did once shout at a lad over the road when I was cleaning my car because he was talking to his girlfriend like utter crap, I knew the family and his Mum so I knew he wasn't going to come near me. The threat of telling his mum was enough to stop the twat in his tracks.

I hope it torments those 38 witnesses of Kitte Genovese's attack for the rest of their lives. Every single one of them should have done something.

*Kitty

The thing is when my ex was kicking the shit out of me; I wasn’t asking anyone to intervene I was literally screaming at them asking them to ring the police/999 and yet they still just carried on their way without doing so.

My ex was 6ft 3 and pure muscle, I’m 5ft 1 and at the time 7.5st. He had me around my throat feet off the floor and literally threw me not only in front of a group of 3 men but a car and continued to kick and punch me.

Are you seriously telling me that a decent person would not see that and dial 999? It would not of impacted any of them in any way, shape or form. My ex was so enraged he was focused on hurting me.

I often think of the people who passed James Bulger and didn’t intervene when they saw that he was crying and bleeding with the older boys as he walked down the street. I saw a documentary ones where there was a woman who had never forgiven herself for not intervening and was haunted by it.
I have called the police several times and have intervened on occasion where I felt it was the right thing to do. I just couldn’t live with myself otherwise

And yet when I saw a road accident 18 months or so ago, when I dialled 999 I was told to get off the phone because there were so many calls coming in about it.

So that implies that people will intervene when they feel there is no likely danger to them. And in contrast, if they feel the may be targeted, they won't (although not sure why you would not call the police if saw someone being attacked).

@Newpuppymummy

I often think of the people who passed James Bulger and didn’t intervene when they saw that he was crying and bleeding with the older boys as he walked down the street. I saw a documentary ones where there was a woman who had never forgiven herself for not intervening and was haunted by it. I have called the police several times and have intervened on occasion where I felt it was the right thing to do. I just couldn’t live with myself otherwise

I think people just thought he was their little brother.

Same with Caroline Hogg and Robert Black - a woman said she saw him walking along with her at the fair and has never forgiven herself for not doing anything, but in those cases you don't necessarily know something is wrong. And maybe nowadays they would have got their mobiles out and quietly called the police - it wasn't so easy then.

However, if someone is being beaten black and blue right in front of you, or you hear proper screaming (it sounds different to playful screaming) you call the police.

By stander apathy is a well known theory
All started by a case of poor woman who was murdered in a tower block over 10 hours her attacker left her alive and then came back to finish her off.
When the police investigated many many people in the tower block told the police they heard her scream and scream for help but everyone thought everyone else was ringing the police and no one did

For the record when I worked for the police it was absolutely fine if multiple people ring in about same incident, so please don't be shy or fear social embarrassment, please act

"If you look around lots of issues are caused by youngsters" nice bit of ageist crap there!

If anyone wants to look at how the Kitty Genovese case is not all it seems, and neither is the bystander effect, here's a decent article and an excellent podcast:

www.newscientist.com/article/2207693-bystander-effect-famous-psychology-result-could-be-completely-wrong/

rottenindenmark.org/2019/06/20/kitty-genovese-and-bystander-apathy/

@ProfessorSillyStuff

"If you look around lots of issues are caused by youngsters" nice bit of ageist crap there!

Well it's not pensioners roaming around here bullying shops, intimidating people on street and jumping in front of buses. It's not even adults. Older or younger. It's kids. It's not ageist to say how it is.

Nice bit of stuffing some "ist" everywhere.

Growing up I was always told never interfere in a dispute between a man and a woman. You ask her if she is OK, if she says yes, you move on. Too many times I heard of the person trying to intervene being attacked themselves by one or both parties.

@Maria53

The police have been in touch again asking me to 'make a statement' and that they didnt find the people.

So why do they want a statement from me then? Wondering how this would differ from what I already reported.

Please do give your statement OP.

Even thought the police did not find them at the time, the girl may report it herself at a later date, or her parents may do so, and your statement could be really vital then in backing up what she is saying.

Living where we live my children all know the following. If you hear screaming or shouting outside once you’ve gone to bed you do not even look out the window.

If I personally hear something I may or may not call the police depending on what I hear. I will not answer the door before checking my cameras to see who’s there and even then may only open a window upstairs first to check what’s up.

However I will hand over hours and hours of cctv and give statements if required.

I will teach my children to call the police from a safe distance. Getting yourself murdered doesn't help anyone

My friend helped a woman who was knocked out by her partner in the street. The partner returned and both of them assaulted him. He was hospitalised for a week.

I helped a man who was being assaulted by 5 other men, he was on the ground being kicked in the head. The men and their partners assaulted me. I was bitten, badly, and spent a year of my life waiting to see if a blood bourne illness had been transmitted to me.

Help someone now? Funny thing is I would. Especially now I have become a mother. One day, hopefully not, that could be my child needing help. However, I fully acknowledge how dangerous it is.

I heard a scream and went out to investigate and the girl over the road had been stabbed in the face by her boyfriend. Luckily she survived but I always go out to check

Yeah I'm just like that as well beautiful.

Walked in front of a bus when it was going to run over a short kid to make the driver stop
Put my face in front of a fist to save friend being beaten

I think it's just a personality thing. I just act. Go crashing in. It's not stupid and it's not brave it's just reflex.

In general though phoning the police from a safe distance is an easy thing to do. All the posts about getting stuck in, it's understandable not to. But phoning the police is just easy.

(Whether they turn out in time/ or at all is another question).

Other thing if things get bad eg I mean if a girl was about to be/ being raped in the street for sure I would shout. I've called the police. I've got your photo. My brother lives up the road and he's coming etc. I couldn't do nothing.

I fell off my bike on a busy street once. Was lying unconscious in the road. There was no risk to anyone if they helped. The only person who did was a woman with downs syndrome.

I have phoned 999 a few times, but would be cautious about intervening...couples fighting in public often seems to turn out to just be attention seeking rather than a genuine situation of needing help.

Have seen good examples of intervention in other countries. I wonder if some of the reluctance here is just embarrassment?

I’ve got involved to check on people that have been laid out on the pavement or benches before (where it’s been obvious they’re not sleeping rough) where others have walked right past them
I live in an area that has a lot of senior citizens in it.

A few years ago when out with my parents I noticed what I thought was an old lady who had died on a bench.

I went towards her and my parents were "come away, not our business, don't get involved" and that was when I realised that they weren't who I thought they were .

Anyway it took me a while to rouse her and she had been there for a while but the number of people who walked by seriously shocked me.

Have seen good examples of intervention in other countries. I wonder if some of the reluctance here is just embarrassment?
I am 95% certain on this but under common law in England there is no legal duty to rescue or assist.

On the continent (civil law systems) there are more legal duties with regards to rescuing others.

Bystander effect. Everyone thinks someone else has called for help. And there is the fear that they could get injured themselves by intervening. We are told to not try and be a hero.
Also, I do think a lot of well meaning people would like to think they would intervene and try to help.. but until you are in that situation, you don't know. Some people will freeze to the spot and find they can only watch what is going on.
I have a recurring dream where I am being attacked in public and I am screaming and screaming for help, and people are just watching. No idea what that means on a deeper level, or why I keep having it.