To wonder why bystanders will ignore a crime?

[Maria53]

Tonight I reported an incident to the police. I heard a young girl screaming over and over again and shouting to be left alone. When I looked outside I saw she was being chased. Acting on autopilot I pulled on my jacket & went outside to investigate/potentially threaten the attacker with a police phone call.

When I got there 3 people walking by at the time were talking about it & the two people were gone. One said they had seen the girl being forcefully pushed to the ground.

Since Sarah Everard I think people in general are on high alert for this sort of thing. In Glasgow, where I am from, a woman named Moira Jones was murdered in a park. Later in court, bystanders said they had heard her screams as they walked past but did nothing - and regretted it bitterly.

When I was talking to my mum on the phone later after the attack, she said I shouldn't have gone to the street to investigate. AIBU to think people are likely to ignore a potentially serious crime due to fear? Or is there another reason for it?

Also this girl's screams were LOUD, I am stll shaken up thinking about it and no one else on the highly populated street had stepped out to look. Only these people walking past at the time.

In a mugging or similar I can get why people would be scared to intervene in case the attacker had a weapon. But other times you think why the hell am I the only person speaking up?

I can think of 2 instances - one at a local market, the other in a pub.

Woman in market basically beating her DC over the head. Surrounded by people ignoring it. I went up to her and told her to stop, and that I would be reporting her (I couldn't, I didn't have any of her details). She did stop though was very verbally abusive to me in response. Everyone else was just pretending it wasn't happening. Afterwards a stallholder thanked me for intervening and said 'shes here every week and always like that' - WTF?!

The pub one, massive row going on in beer garden, bloke swearing and shouting, drunk, knocking over glasses. Girl crying. I went over with DP (as my backup!) and just said is everything ok? Quite politely and calmly. Bloke ranted a bit and then stumbled off saying fuck this shit. Girl said a friend was coming - waited with her til they turned up. Everyone else completely ignored it, presumably thinking someone else would sort it out I guess.

@SchrodingersImmigrant

Having seen what is going on, the decision to become involved then becomes a consious, moral one.

No it won't. That would suggest that people who for any reason cannot intervene are lacking in moral department. And chosing not to put your own safety in risk isn't a moral failing. We are not all Marvel characters.

Yes, I am not saying people need to put themselves at risk. But they can call the police, or stay at a safe distance and loudly ask if the person being attacked/abused is OK. Or in the case of someone being racially abused/harrased etc they can avoid confronting the verbally abusive person and just talk to the person being harrased - so they know they are not alone. What you can do depends on lots of factors - the location, how many other people are around, the level of agression, the danger posed by the agressor, your own physical capabilities. But normally there is something that can be done. I do agree it is not always easy to know what to do in the heat of the moment, and maybe there should be more training given to people in how to be a "good" bystander. But I will always remember being alone on a train as a young teenager and the train carriage filled up with very loud football fans who were noisy, drunk, making sexual inuendo some of which was directed at me. But because I was apparently alone in the carriage with them it all felt agressive, even if some of them werent intending to be intimidating (some definately were.) Then, the one other person in the carriage - a man, moved seats so they were sitting opposite me and quietly made conversation (small talk) the rest of the journey. he was just one man. He didnt confront the other men, it wouldnt have been safe and could have made things worse. But he made me feel less alone and so much safer. And probably signalled to the other men that I wasnt alone either. Off topic, but I do wish this kind of thing was valued more highly - boys in particular often want to be "Marvel Characters" as you say, and as you say that isnt usually realistic, but actual heroism often looks very different.

@MiloAndEddie

Oh I didn’t realise this would be a moral failing 😂

I didnt say it would be a moral failing. I said it would be a moral decision. In some situations (where there is danger to yourself) it is a veyr complicated moral decision with no "right" or "wrong" answer (and therefore not a test you can "fail") - but you cant say there is no moral element to the decision - its the kind of things that people can debate for ages when discussing ethics/philisophy.

The Kitty Genovase case has been widely debunked as a piece of spin from the authorities. That said its definitely relevant to think about bystander effect.

I weirdly even saw it from two police officers that were visiting my service and walked in as a service user threw a chair at my head. We restrained (caveat we were trained to do so which in fairness the police knew ) and the shift police attended but the two that visited us just mentioned they could see we had it under control. I mean we did but mainly because I ducked .

In fairness this was a well known addiction service and probably not relevant because they knew we dealt with these incidents a lot and they were actually there to meet with me about Drug related death figures . I assume hope they would have stepped in if they had got the better of us.

Its difficult though. I was in a quandry when walking the ddog with dc in winter 2019 (so ot was dark) I saw a man following a woman with a buggy (carrycot type so baby must have been not far off newborn) screaming at her (by the wording he was clearly the father) and git close enough and start reaching for her. She was trying to speed up , the baby was crying.

I told my DC to stand still out of the way and stepped in between them and told her to keep walking. He then shouted and screamed at me (fortunately as above not the first time by a long shot and I can look after myself to a point ) ...after eventually getting my "Incident" voice which is a polite no - nonsense version of sit down , shut up I'm not scared of you).

Now I would never ever usually step in if my DC were there. Never , I am far from stupid. However he was very obviously reaching to hit her , she had a newborn and where she was was near houses that I guarantee you no-one would have come out of as they were hostels and HMO that we know for a fact are filled with people who have their own warrants out and issues with the police. (I live in a lovely area as you can imagine ...moving out in the summer ).

He would have had a good 5 or 600 yards before she was in a place anyone would call the police. Honestly I shouldn't have stepped in but nor could I have ignored as a mother and newborn (ish) were attacked and I didn't have time to call the police as I would have been kn the phone watching him hit her , god knows what would happen if the pram got knocked over.

My DC were scared and I feel horribly guilty but in times since DS1 asked me about it (I did a child centric debrief ) and I'm sort of glad he saw me stand up to someone like that and he said he thought it meant I was a superhero but I know I took a huge risk. I have been trained in restraining with a weapon (if he had a knife ) but let's not kid ourselves , its been a while , I'm not invincible and I had two DC there. I've talked to dc about not taking silly risks and I wouldn't encourage them to do the same (possibly not well after DS1 got kicked protecting his friend from a bully )

I do ultimately think in that scenario I was the less vulnerable but it isn't cut and dried. Many on MN will think I'm an awful mother for reacting with my DC there. Others would have thought the same if I'd let her be hurt.

You can't win either way. You can only do the nest you can at the time .

@Shinyletsbebadguys Yes - thats what I mean by having to make a moral decision once you are aware - I didnt mean it was always clear cut or that there is a wrong or right answer. As far as your own story goes though - I can remember my dad intervening a couple of timesin stuff when I was a child and I am really glad he did. It actually had the secondary effect of making me know that harrasment from men is bad, and shouldnt just be accepted. Which helped me later in life.

I’m going back about ten years ago now
My son went to a school about 30 seconds from our house and his siblings to the primary school about 2 minutes in the other direction
Anyway one day I’d picked his siblings up and he’d walked round to meet us as he did about 3 times a week
On the way back we had to pass a corner shop-to my horror I saw a group of lads beating the crap out of a younger lad
The owners of the shop could clearly see what was going on,but they didn’t do anything-neither did any of the parents walking past-some stepping over them to get into the shop
I left the younger kids with my son on the other side of the street and waded in to help this poor kid who was bleeding and in a bad way
My son rang the police on my phone and other people where just walking past
The gang turned on me but I stood my ground and they ran off
Police never arrived (not while I was stood there anyway-and nobody contacted me to take a statement)
I rang the school once we where at home to tell them what had happened as these lads where in uniform
My son tells me nothing was said in assembly and some of the lads tried to have a go at him about me-thankfully my son is/was a larger lad so nothing really came of it-school again didn’t do anything when I reported it to them-it took the threat of the police and me going to the local paper for them to simper something to the lads involved
Anyway we’d been home about 20 minutes when there was a loud knock at the door
It was the beaten up lads mum-screaming at me to ‘mind my own business next time’ ‘I’m going to the police about you as when you grabbed hold of him to pull him away you assaulted him’ and ‘to keep my nose out next time’!
I’d help again but that really shook me up at the time-we still talk about it to this day

My ex years ago saw a bloke beating up a woman in the street
He got between then and threatened the bloke to leave her alone
She turned on him and hit him with her handbag for having a go at her fella!
He said she must have had a brick in it as it almost knocked him out
He won’t help anyone again

Many years ago I was attacked by my ex, he was kicking the shit out of me. He threw me into the road and 3 men literally stepped over me and carried on walking down the road. I was screaming at them to call the police, they completely ignored me. He then threw me into another road (it was at a T junction) and a car had to do an emergency stop to avoid running me over, they drove around me (and over my mobile!) and went on their way. Again I was screaming at them to phone the police. Eventually I managed to get away and ring the police myself but to this day I cannot believe 4 people didn’t even ring 999.

Lots of people are cowards and they don't even have the good grace to be ashamed of that any more.

I think most people won't, because of fear of not knowing what harm they are facing. Absolutely nothing wrong with that . I doubt anyone would witness or hear something and not do anything because they don't care. Calling the police is doing something.

A friend of mine was in her front garden when a teenage couple came walking past, arguing loudly. The boy hit the girl and when she told him to leave her alone, they both started arguing with her and then they beat her up. She'll never open her mouth to help anyone again. Like wise, I once intervened, in a very busy street, with the help of a man, stopping a man from punching a woman repeatedly. He raised his fists to hit me but thought better of it when I said I would press charges and he would be spending the night in jail. But I am sure it was the presence of another man standing right next to me that really stopped him. People often have trauma of their own that stops them intervening. My friend who was beaten doesn't go out at night on her own anymore, it has had a huge impact on her life.

I definitely believe in the bystander effect, to an extent.

I sort of experienced it once when on a busy late night train. A guy got on wearing a backpack. A huge and very aggressive 6ft+ man was standing near the doors with a woman, and immediately started asking this guy if he had a bomb, and accusing him of being a terrorist. It was vile, there must’ve been 30-40 people in the carriage and nobody said a thing.

Eventually the train conductor came to try and calm the situation down, and the guy ended up being move to sit near to me. I quietly asked him if he was ok and ensured him that I’d be reporting the incident.

Honestly, I think in most circumstances people are scared and fearful for their own safety. It was obvious in that situation that it might not have ended well if a few people had intervened, I think it could’ve made much worse. I think about that scenario often though, and I do feel ashamed that nobody spoke up.

I don’t know what the answer is. These situations are never black and white, but we live in a horrible world now and I wouldn’t feel safe intervening in most scenarios. I would always try to do something though, e.g phone the police.

Good on you for trying to do something though OP.

I can understand why people don't, it's scary and you might get bashed

If you're a bloke getting involved then it's also likely that it's going to escalate. If you're not confident you can deal with it then it's probably easier for some to walk on by.

My 15 dd was hassled by 3 boys a few nights ago. 5pm. They pushed her, spat at her and slapped her bum. No one came to her help and there were adults around. She ran home crying past several adults and no one helped. That upset her just as much the boys actions (who were about 13).

I don't know. 20 years ago, my husband stopped someone being aggressive and rude on the bus and the guy pulled a knife on him. No one interferred and he could easily have been stabbed.

I wanted to say that I was in a not-great (too put it mildly) relationship when I was much younger. When we were out my boyfriend "jokingly" put his hands round my throat and pinned me against the wall. A couple walking past intervened and my immediate response was "Im fine, we were just joking, leave him alone" (I didnt shout or swear or anything because thats not really me). But my first instinct was to defend him. The couple may well have gone away thinking that their intervention was pointless/that they wouldnt bother getting involved again. But, it did have a massive impact in terms of de-normalising stuff I had been putting up with up till then. Long term it helped me break up with him (although not immediately). If people ignore this stuff, then it sends a message that it is not a big deal, you are over-reacting, nobody cares. This is true for people in bad relationships. It is also true for young people (like @Newpuppymummy ' s DD) who are left feeling like no-one cares about them. Even if the only safe way to intervene is to check that someone is OK after the perpetratos have left, it can still be higely valuable to that person. Sometimes the very act of intervening is the point, even if it doesnt appear to have an immediate effect.

On the few occasions where I've witnessed something I have called the police.

But I haven't personally intervened for my own safety.

I wish I were the sort of person to charge in but I'm just not. I'm bloody terrified. I'm a 5'2" woman, soft-spoken, with a "posh" voice. If they turn on me, I've not got a chance.

That said, I have called 999 on a massive street fight where everyone else was stood around watching. Don't know if the police turned up because I legged it as soon as I'd given them the info!

I can understand people being reluctant to intervene but I can't understand people not calling the police, if they are in a safe position to do so.

Probably around 25 years ago, a friend was walking along, early evening but still light. A car pulled up beside her, the guy jumped out and tried to drag her into the car. As she was screaming and fighting she noticed an older lady looking out of the window. She screamed 'help me' and the lady simply closed her curtains. Fortunately my friend managed to break away and the guy drove off. She didn’t blame the lady for not coming outside to intervene but couldn't believe she didn't simply call the police. My friend was not even 5 foot and all of about 6 stone. She probably looked like a child and yet the lady simply turned away...

Fear of getting hurt, and the law not supporting intervention in some cases are factors I am sure.

I think lots of people don't want to call police so it doesn't come back to them and perpetrators don't find out who called or having to go to court and be threatened etc.

I think it's easy to understand both sides here. The victims who wanted help and the people who didn't.

Fear

I don't. I've intervened a couple of times and when I couldn't (in flip flops so can't run, bloke with weapon last summer) I've been on to the police. Waiting to see if I have to go to court for that one.

Basically, I can run well so I feel confident enough to check

"And chosing not to put your own safety in risk isn't a moral failing. We are not all Marvel characters."

Yes, it is a moral failing. I am utterly disappointed that someone would spout this crap.

Stop acting out of fear people. It's the perpetrators that should be scared.

I am utterly disappointed that someone would spout this crap.

You may call it crap, I call it reality.

Yeah. It's the perpetrators who should be sacred. Sure. One of us has probably a knife. It ain't me and it will never be me.

If you look around lots of issues are caused by youngsters. Maybe instead of telling people they should intervene when crime is happening, we should be telling people to parent their kids. Not shaming someone who doesn't want to end up a target.

Yes, it is a moral failing. I am utterly disappointed that someone would spout this crap

Putting ones safety isn't crap. It's logical. I will put my safety first every time. Dd don't need a dead hero mum, she needs a live one
I'd only ever call in an anonymous tip, never put my name to it
I've seen enough to know you keep to yourself for your own good.