To wonder why bystanders will ignore a crime?

[Maria53]

Tonight I reported an incident to the police. I heard a young girl screaming over and over again and shouting to be left alone. When I looked outside I saw she was being chased. Acting on autopilot I pulled on my jacket & went outside to investigate/potentially threaten the attacker with a police phone call.

When I got there 3 people walking by at the time were talking about it & the two people were gone. One said they had seen the girl being forcefully pushed to the ground.

Since Sarah Everard I think people in general are on high alert for this sort of thing. In Glasgow, where I am from, a woman named Moira Jones was murdered in a park. Later in court, bystanders said they had heard her screams as they walked past but did nothing - and regretted it bitterly.

When I was talking to my mum on the phone later after the attack, she said I shouldn't have gone to the street to investigate. AIBU to think people are likely to ignore a potentially serious crime due to fear? Or is there another reason for it?

Also this girl's screams were LOUD, I am stll shaken up thinking about it and no one else on the highly populated street had stepped out to look. Only these people walking past at the time.

last time i got involved, me and a mate had a knife pulled on us
I was 16
Girl on bus same age as us with her boyfriend, he was screaming blue murder at her, she was sinking into chair in tears, we told him to back off, leave her alone, he screamed at us, told us we were fucked
He jumps on his phone, we get to bus stop at a shopping center and we just see what we assume are his mates circling us, 2 had knives, we literally jumped on next bus we saw, got taken half our out of our way and walked home from there

NEVER again will i step in

The police have been in touch again asking me to 'make a statement' and that they didnt find the people.

So why do they want a statement from me then? Wondering how this would differ from what I already reported.

Been there recently, Sunday afternoon dog walk through a park and a gang of hooded youths appeared from nowhere and started laying into another lad with hockey sticks. It was awful, he looked terrified.

My DH had our DDs and the attack was happening in between me and them on a path. I saw red and just started shouting and swearing at them, frightened them off while calling the police. At least a handful of other witnesses just stood around like goldfish with their mouths bobbing open. Not a word in support, or to check on the poor lad - just shuffled off. I was disgusted to be honest, but even DH panicked and just tried to back up with our DDs.

I am generally very assertive though, and will usually pipe up quite quickly. Never found myself in any real danger as a result fortunately.

@StarCat2020

The bystander effect is somewhat of a myth. And the Kitty Genovese story particularly was misreported. Usually, people do help No-one came to help Kitty though.

Supposedly the misreported part of the story is the number of people that heard hear screams and did nothing.

At least two "bystanders" rang the police, who didn't come out.

At that time, there was no 911 - to call the police, you had to find the number for your local precinct. And there was only poor streetlighting, so anyone looking out of their window would struggle to see what was going on.

After she was initially attacked on the street, her attacker ran off - she went round the back of the building (where no-one could see her) and then he came back, and that's when he killed her. He didn't kill her in the street, in view of everyone.

She made it to a friend's apartment and knocked on the door. He decided not to ring the police because as a gay man, he was worried about coming into contact with the police. He didn't "stand by" - he deliberately chose not to help his friend, because he was worried about the consequences for him. With good reason - Kitty's girlfriend was interrogated by police for hours about their relationship, she was the main suspect for nearly a week afterwards because she was in a same-sex romantic and sexual relationship. The people who lived in that block had good reason to be afraid of the police.

Someone did come to help Kitty, her neighbour who held her as she died. Someone did ring the police, and the police eventually came out.

The newspaper story came from a journalist whose only source was the police chief, who had a clear interest in not making it about "the police didn't respond to these calls" and instead about "how can we poor police officers do our jobs while people stand by and do nothing."

I highly, highly recommend the "You're Wrong About" podcast episode on this - it's basically a story that a journalist twisted to make it a "better" story, and that's become the version we all know...

StarCat2020 I did a reply with a picture attached and it won't load so I'll try again. It's used in hurling and could be believable in the grabbing first thing to hand. I wasn't suggesting going out vigilante style in case it came across that way but it could be enough to frighten/freak out an attacker. Also if they go for you there's a bit of distance. Not suggesting this for everyone just what we grew up knowing. I can't get the pictures to work here but if you search for hurling sport it's what's in the players hands.

I’ve only witnessed two incidents and intervened both times, both years ago when it my early 20s and felt invisible.

The first some school kids were attacking another outside my house and I went charging out yelling and they dispersed. Kid being beaten ran off. I’m not sure I’d do same now, particularly not in that part of London.

Second time on Oxford street, walking home with friend and found girl sobbing, she’d had a fight with her boyfriend who soon turned up threatening us. We resisted for a bit but he squared up to my (female) friends so we left and reported.

An incident occurred outside my house at 3am some months ago. Long terraced street- loads of houses. Someone was damaging property (no humans getting hurt) in an incredibly loud way. I saw several lights go on in houses and even a few people clearly go out for a sticky beak (in dressing gowns and slippers, strolling past)- yet I was the only one to call 999. I didn’t go outside because I was scared. I was made to feel like a snitch reporting (not by the police). Not my property being damaged etc. But id damn well hope someone would have called if it was mine and I couldn’t! Fat chance here it seems. And it could easily have turned nastier. I was really disappointed in my neighbours!

When I was a teenager, I saw a younger child being attacked by older teenagers. I couldn't stop it from happening as I was outnumbered but when it had finished I looked after the child and took them to the police station. I was also a witness in court.

This happened in front of approximately 30 fully grown adults and not one of them came forward to be a witness or checked afterwards if the child was ok. That disgusted me.

No good deed goes unpunished

I would hope I would try and intervene but an event a couple of years ago would make me hesitate. DH and I were driving home from a friend's house at about 2 am. We live quite rurally and came across a car stopped in the middle of the lane and a couple arguing out of their car. The young man was pushing the girl up against a hedge and she was screaming, you can't make me, I don't want to. We both approached and the young man said it was a "private argument". I asked if the girl was OK and he said she was fine and to mind our own business. DH said I want to hear the young lady say she is OK and we offered to take her home if she wanted. They then both turned on us and we ended up being pushed to the ground and DH was kicked before they ran off. And to add insult to injury they were laughing at us. So, I understand why people don't always intervene.

Never get involved. My ex once tried to stop a man kicking the shit out of a policewoman... the attacker ran off but guess who got arrested and spent a night in the cells? Fortunately there was CCTV in one of the shops and it was clear he had done nothing wrong. But we often wondered what would have happened if it hadn't been there, it would have been his word against the policewoman's.

I think the main reasons people don't get involved are a) they're genuinely oblivious, so engrossed in their own world they don't notice, and b) anything out of the norm is suspicious and best avoided.

The first is that if you don't have your headphones on and a kind of tunnel vision there are so many sounds and sights trying to grab your attention as you walk down the street, if your brain didn't filter them out you'd never get anywhere.

The second is human nature. We have evolved to be suspicious of the different. People behaving strangely (whether it be fighting, or just slumped unconscious on the bench) trigger the fight or flight response. They're not behaving how we normally expect people to, therefore they may be a danger, so we either have to tackle it head on or get the hell away from it.

I've been on the receiving end. Once I fell in the street and the couple walking behind me literally stepped over my body - I honestly believe they were so engrossed in their conversation they were on autopilot and didn't even recognise what had happened.

I am not saying it is right or wrong to directly intervene, I am just interested in why people react in different ways.

Because someone explained to them very clearly the first week they immigrated that you don't intervene in anything unless you want to get stabbed.
That came after youths (I was 20 at the time so they were not much younger) on a bus were bullying people and I took a breath to tell tell them off. Guy next to me stopped me.

My native country is by far not the perfect place, but ghis warning chilled me in my spine. Adults afraid of kids amoking weed on a bus (that itself is pretty wtf) so they don't get stabbed. Funnily I used to go and help back where I grew up without hesitation. Very quickly re trained after seeing people being attacked for intervening.

Shop owner nearby intervened. Now he has bunch of little rats scaring his customers away, shop egged daily and at least once a week fire set to the front. 13 year old kids are doing this...

This is why people don't intervene. However, what most of us do is to keep out and call police. That is something everyone could do (mandatory disclaimer I know it's not absolutely everyone, some people physically or mentally actually can't)

I always remember the man who intervened in something outside of his home and he got stabbed and died. I probably wouldn’t intervene directly but I’d definitely phone the police.

I was assaulted in broad daylight by my ex. He had been stalking me for months but that day just decided to finally attack me. This was in front of a shop, lots of people around. None of them did anything.

A while back a woman was murdered by her ex partner neighbour heard the screams and went to help and ended up killed, sometimes its a case of ringing the police

If you intervene, often the attacker will turn on you. Sometimes the victim will turn on you too. And it might not just be a punch - they could have a knife and kill you. Common sense is not to get involved.

I get the rage if someone is being victimised or assaulted and don't give it a second thought before at least saying something. It's going to go tits up one of these days.

I stopped a girl from being pushed from a slow-moving train many years ago (seems bizarre nowadays, but train doors just opened, they didn't have to lock before the train moved off). The attackers jumped off and legged it as the train slowed to pull into the next station.

There were at least half a dozen men in the carriage, none of whom did anything, not even look to see why the girl was screaming her head off. I gave them a right mouthful.

It was racially motivated, too. Bastards.

That is why, if you ever need help, you should shout "fire" and not "help". People are more likely to not respond/notice "help" (it doesnt necessarily make them bad people, there are lots of reasons), but everyone is programmed (at a deep, subconcious level) to respond to "fire". Having seen what is going on, the decision to become involved then becomes a consious, moral one.

Having seen what is going on, the decision to become involved then becomes a consious, moral one.

No it won't. That would suggest that people who for any reason cannot intervene are lacking in moral department. And chosing not to put your own safety in risk isn't a moral failing. We are not all Marvel characters.

If I’m perfectly honest because I would be scared.

We witnessed what we thought was some lads arguing outside the front of our house, looked out the window to see one pull a knife out the back of his trousers. It properly shit me up.

I’ll be honest and say my instinct would be flight rather than fight in that scenario

In short people are scared. DH and I have both intervened in assaults happening in the street, gone to the aid of someone clearly overdosing in the street etc, BUT we have both worked for criminal justice agencies and with people convicted of very serious offences for many years we have both been threatened and attacked at work, so in the grand scheme of things we feel confident we can handle a situation without escalating it and also accurately assess risk to know when to get away. I also wouldn't intervene in something serious without either calling police myself or getting another passerby to do so. What we've both seen is that once someone intervenes and seems to know what they're doing other people are keen to help out. This seems reasonable to me.

Oh I didn’t realise this would be a moral failing 😂

It's also not just scared for a safety. Being arrested for a part in a fight even if you weren't the perpetrator can affect your current and future visa and naturalisation applications.

Look, it's great if someone does help. Honestly, great. But it's not that hard to understand why people wouldn't.

This is taught at an early age in the UK. It's ingrained in us. At school, if there was a fight in the playground, would you have got in the middle to split it up? No, it's more likely you waited for a teacher or adult to come over. Why? Why not jump in and stop it yourself?
If you think back to how we're raised, it's other people's responsibility to help strangers and to risk lives.

Earlier this week I did some great, free training (hosted on Zoom) on bystander intervention with a company called Hollaback and I know they're running more.

They teach you the five Ds:

• Distract
• Delegate
• Document
• Delay
• Direct

(based on the situation and what you feel comfortable doing, bearing your own safety in mind)

More here, but I'd definitely recommend their training, too:
www.ihollaback.org/bystander-resources/

When I was about 7, two strapping teenage lads tried to abduct me, physically, after I had a minor falling-out with their younger brother. I screamed and struggled and they did not let go of me until an old woman came out of her house and shouted at them. She then offered to see me home. I am sure she must have been gone for many years now but I am so grateful to her.