Aibu to think that actually we should let the EU keep more vaccines that would have been sent here given their low vaccination rate and our high one.

[Kendodd]

Firstly, the EU have majorly fucked up vaccine deployment, there's no getting around that and no excuse.
But, if people are dying because of a vaccine shortage and vaccine is being sent to us to put into the arms of people very unlikely to die then the vaccine should be rerouted. A few caveats to this, that vaccine should be in people's arms (especially vulnerable people) as fast as possible and not still in shelves. Apparently the US has hundreds of thousands of doses of the AZ vaccine in storage unapproved when it could already be in arms somewhere else in the world.
I also wish the rest of the world would follow our example and delay the second dose to get more people protected. I think the (brilliant) tactic has been overlooked internationally.
This is a global issue and we should take a global view.
So iabu we should get the vaccine we ordered.
Or ianbu they need it more so should deploy it there.

[quote StormzyinaTCup]If we'd stayed, we would have had 2 choices with vaccine procural: 1. Go with the EU or 2. Make our own contracts (any EU country could have done this.

Sputnik anyone?

Had we stayed we could not have negotiated in parallel with the same pharma companies that the EU were negotiating with. We would only be allowed to do this after contracts to the EU had been finalised. Germany did do this which was apparently a breach of the EU procurement agreement.

www.politico.eu/article/germanys-coronavirus-vaccine-side-deal-at-odds-with-legally-binding-eu-pact/[/quote]
The EU apparently doesn't care that Germany broke the rules.

I wonder what their reaction would have been if the UK had done the same.

I think it's in the interests of everyone that vaccination is worldwide so yes where countries have high infections and get vaccines I think we should give supplies

I agree to a certain extent but feel the EU have gone about it all in such an outwardly agressive bullying way it’s a harder sell. All the trashing of the AZ vaccine is really hard to explain away or defend. They shouldn’t have lashed out like they did causing such ill will. Prior to that moment we were all going along happily.
But I accept the argument that europe needs vaccinating too and it’s citizens shouldn’t suffer for the leaders incompetence and arrogance.
I find the whole EU reaction quite unbelievable considering AZ is selling vaccine at cost. A big mistake for AZ to agree to with hindsight.

I remember on another thread a while ago a poster said the vaccination programs should be global and particularly vulnerable people anywhere in the world should be vaccinated first, over healthy young people here. I was one of the very few that agreed with her. Overriding this though should be speed, better younger people vaccinated fast than faffing around waiting ages imo. Vaccine shouldn't be on shelves awaiting approval (looking at you America) a couple of posters have said the EU have 40 million doses of AZ unused in storage, if that's true they should use that first. I think I big complication is this second dose business, I've had one dose and would quite happily not even have a second dose if it meant someone else vulnerable was protected. Anyone know if there are any studies into just one dose and how long protection lasts?

The EU played hardball with AZ and negotiated a lower price but the consequence was that the contract is on a best efforts basis. The U.K. contributed to development costs, negotiated sooner, paid more and got a tighter contract.
Now the EU are effectively trying to renegotiate their contract through political force - it sets a awful precedent. You cannot rely on commercial contracts you make with EU states because they will use political leverage to force you to accept different terms during the life of the contract.

Perhaps if the EU had been a bit more pragmatic in its initial approach they wouldn’t be in this mess now.

The political posturing on the OAZ vaccine has damaged vaccine roll out in the EU and played into the anti EU narrative in the U.K.

The U.K. has not been a shining beacon in the pandemic but on vaccine roll out and virus sequencing we are world class. Why are there comparatively low levels virus sequencing being done in Europe?

Now the EU are effectively trying to renegotiate their contract through political force - it sets a awful precedent. You cannot rely on commercial contracts you make with EU states because they will use political leverage to force you to accept different terms during the life of the contract

Exactly, EU negotiated a contract based on price and included in that contract is 'best endeavours' this is different to the UK's contract. EU can't just turnaround 6 months down the line, having realised that their contract is lacking and think it's Ok to retrospectively change that using whatever political means they can. So far we have had invoking article 16 (quickly reversing that political grenade ), dissing the efficacy of AZ which goes against the EMAs advice and now moving onto export bans. The negotiating of their contract has nothing to do with the U.K. and is everything to do with AZ/EU, however, EU they have chosen to drag every one of us into this mess with their 'if we can't have it then you can't either' tactic. There were much better (and more diplomatic ways) they could have dealt with this but they didn't. It's a hot mess mostly of their own making.

I take most of the points on board and don't disagree.

Our death rate is falling fast though and theirs is rising, they're our neighbours, we're got to help them.

@Kendodd

I take most of the points on board and don't disagree.

Our death rate is falling fast though and theirs is rising, they're our neighbours, we're got to help them.

If they didn't have loads of vaccines already I might agree with you.

It’s not just the doses that’s the issue. Macron also public ally rubbished the 12 week wait between doses too. He called it “ not serious”. Even if he disagreed and plenty in the U.K. did too, why not keep an open mind as that strategy is working here. We’re nearly at the same level for two doses as France now and we’re going to seriously overtake by end of April.
Macron along with lots of other frankly, have Boris derangement syndrome, automatically laughing at the U.K. policies, assuming they are wrong. Well more fool then. Ireland too did this, an Irish mp openly laughing at the suggestion to extend delay between doses. I thought at the time it would come back to bite them and it has. Why not keep an open mind?

Oh man....

As I've had reason to explain before, the EU has not fucked up vaccine deployment because that was never the EU's task. Vaccine deployment is organized by the individual member states, which contrary to what too many UK citizens appear to believe remain independent.

If the EU has fucked up anything, it is procurement, not deployment. And it is rather disingenuous for the UK to snivel at that since it has been the prime beneficiary of the EU's vaccine exports. If the EU has made a mistake here, it was to allow Pharma companies to export vaccines rather than keep them 'for its own people' as many commentators on here would have it.

Honestly, inform yourself before you start passing judgment.

Dragons den teaches us every single week that you don’t want to screw investors down to the lowest share price possible. You have to make it worth the dragons time. If a dragon is only going to get 10% of your business they will only put in 10% or probably less of their effort and time! It’s obvious.
But the EU were so proud of their low dose price back in November and plenty of EU supporters here trumpeted this too as a triumph for the EU and by extension a failure if the U.K. when it actually is and was the exact opposite.
I’m honestly quite shocked by the level of incompetence shown as I did think they’d be just as efficient and competent as us and we’d be roughly equal with our roll outs.

@LoadsOfTrouble

Oh man....

As I've had reason to explain before, the EU has not fucked up vaccine deployment because that was never the EU's task. Vaccine deployment is organized by the individual member states, which contrary to what too many UK citizens appear to believe remain independent.

If the EU has fucked up anything, it is procurement, not deployment. And it is rather disingenuous for the UK to snivel at that since it has been the prime beneficiary of the EU's vaccine exports. If the EU has made a mistake here, it was to allow Pharma companies to export vaccines rather than keep them 'for its own people' as many commentators on here would have it.

Honestly, inform yourself before you start passing judgment.

It’s both though isn’t it?! Procurement and deployment. Should the EU have helped more with making sure all member states had what they needed to deploy efficiently? I don’t know the answer.

YABVU. UK first, then Europe.

And it is rather disingenuous for the UK to snivel at that since it has been the prime beneficiary of the EU's vaccine exports.

TheEU didn't export vaccines anymore that it exported my German car. The vaccine manufacturers, operating within EU borders, exported vaccines to meet their contractual obligations. The EU did not obstructed them doing business but is thinking about doing so now which will send a message, not a good one, to anyone thinking about moving operations to anywhere within the EU.

vulnerable people anywhere in the world should be vaccinated first
A large proportion of the world will be vaccinated using vaccines paid for and donated by western countries. We can’t donate that money if our own economy isn’t functioning with everything open and generating money. As long as we are closed down and dishing out government support left right and centre, then we can’t afford to support other countries. It’s common sense to fully vaccinate ourselves so we can function as normal and have the funds to help others.

@Kendodd

YABVVVU. The EU can bore off. IDGAF about them.

The way they have behaved this past few weeks is DISGUSTING. They get NOTHING from us.

"But, if people are dying because of a vaccine shortage and vaccine is being sent to us to put into the arms of people very unlikely to die then the vaccine should be rerouted."

I would agree, if the EU would actually use the damned vaccines and not piss about being all reluctant. Apparently, there is only 20% confidence in the AstraZeneca vaccine, and even Pfizer only garners 52%!

So, on the whole - fuck 'em, lets give the vaccine to those who will take it. It's got a shelf-life and is likely to go out-of-date while EU citizens swither.

We got our act together, took big risks and invested wisely, we also spent a lot of money to help pharma to get the production ready before we knew for certain any particular vaccine worked. We then agreed contracts that gave us the first option. There is nothing we did the EU could not have done. I'd rather any slack we have goes to the developing world who can't afford it than the EU who are just incompetent.

YABU. We have a contract because we were ahead of the game. There are currently millions of doses stockpiled and unused in the EU they can use those first (bearing in mind they already delayed due to their non valid concerns they all shouted about and have to back track on).

As this was over a week ago you would have expected them to move fast this week, but they haven’t and due to various leaders lots don’t want the AZ one

We had a contract three months before the EU and had some issues at the start, not sure why AZ didn’t learn from those but they didn’t as it appears as they had production issues with EU doses, but that’s for them to sort

What I don’t understand is why they are kicking off, after putting all these barriers in place for AZ. Use up what you have first instead of it sitting there

@Kendodd
Our death rate is falling fast though and theirs is rising, they're our neighbours, we're got to help them

How exactly?they made it clear they don’t want AZ, they are stockpiling it rather than getting vaccinations sorted. We only make AZ in this country.

THEY are the ones that need to sort themselves out, they have had plenty of opportunity but muck it up

[quote ichundich]@Effic AZ has made a contract with the EU about how many doses it's supposed to deliver (400 million). So yes, the EU does have a 'right' to the vaccines it has ordered. [/quote]
As does the UK.

I think we should vaccinate all the over 50s and ppl with co-morbidities then give to the EU. The virus is basically only dangerous for older people and people with co morbidities.

@tttigress

I think we should vaccinate all the over 50s and ppl with co-morbidities then give to the EU. The virus is basically only dangerous for older people and people with co morbidities.

Is it?

DH's mid twenties previously healthy friend from work will be pleased to hear it or he would be if he was conscious.

He is in intensive care, for the second time and it's not looking good.

I imagine his family back in India will be mightily relieved to know he is fine and not about to die alone on another continent because he is young with no CO morbidities.

Fit your own oxygen mask before helping anyone else.... We should get our economy up and running and then donate to COVAX. The EU can sort themselves out!

No, our death rate is far higher and we have put the investment into the development and production of the vaccinations. People are still dying here of it. Plus financially we need to get ourselves back to 'normal' ASAP for our economy to begin to recover. Sometimes you need to look after yourself first unfortunately.