Inheritance issues - part 2. AKA: Is FIL being manipulated and ripped off?

[ThornAmongstRoses]

This thread is for those who helped me on my previous thread about my FIL upping sticks, handing his a big chunk off his money over to his daughter to ultimately live in her garden. Sorry but I don’t know how to link to my previous thread.

The update from what happened last night when we confronted FIL with our concerns:

“And it turns out that SIL is 14 weeks pregnant.

Apparently when she and her partner first suggested the Cabin idea 6 months or so ago and FIL declined and said he was happy to buy somewhere so he wouldn’t be under their feet, she told him not to be silly as the arrangement would work out really well for all involved as she and her partner were hoping to have more children in the future but that they wouldn’t be able to unless they had a bigger house anyway. SIL then told him how much it would mean to her and how wonderful it would be for FIL to be around to watch new grandchildren be born and see them grow up, liked he’d been around when DB (my husband) had had his children. FIL then agreed that it would be really nice to be around for early days and from then onwards, and agreed it was something he would happy be to look into.

Anyway, it looks like SIL took that as him being board and to cut a long story short, she told FIL she was pregnant about 3 months ago but told him not to tell anyone as it was such early days (her prerogative so that’s fine). Anyhow, it appears that is why FIL put his house up for sale and sold it quickly so the new house could be bought in time for the baby’s arrival. Bit strange really seeing as the baby generally stays with the parents in their room for a good 6 months or so, but that’s the story FIL gave. Stinks of manipulation to me but FIL is clearly happy with what’s happened and he does seem excited about the idea of being around for the new baby.

We asked him what would become of the Cabin if he passed away and he said that wasn’t his problem (with a smile) and said that SIL and her partner could do whatever they liked with it.

He hasn’t looked into anything legal as he didn’t think it was necessary. We did advise it (and gave examples from this thread as reasons why he should) but he told us we are worrying unnecessarily. So that’s his choice to make.

We asked him about the time scale of him staying here which was slightly awkward but he promised us again he would only be here for a few months. We said that was unlikely and explained why (all the issues raised in this thread) but he said things would be moving along quickly and if there are any delays he would move out and rent somewhere near us until the cabin is built. I asked why he wasn’t going to rent over there to make sure he liked the area, but he said he wanted to spend as much time as he could with us before he moved away.

So yes, he seems to be going into this with an awareness of all the ins and outs and is happy to go along with it all, so that’s that. It’s all his decision and if he doesn’t take legal advice then that too is his choice.

We have told him we won’t be taking the offered £25k but thanked him for his offer. As has been said on this thread, he’s probably going to need a back-up fund.

FIL left about an hour ago and me and DH are off to bed now with a film as we feel drained. I just wanted to update you as I’ve had so much help and advice from you all.”

I had a PM this morning from a poster who had wanted to respond to my post last night but realised the thread was full so answered privately instead.

Anyhow - I just wanted to start a second thread as I’m sure others have lots of further advice based on my FIL’s revelation, and also because I doubt this is the end of the matter.

Me and DH struggled to sleep last night but we see it’s a done deal now and due to the pregnancy we know FIL isn’t going to back out the deal so now it’s a case of trying to get him to protect himself as best as he can.

"Your FIL suddenly dying isn't what's going to cause problems. It's what happens if SIL changes her mind, if her relationship breaks down, if FIL gets ill, if SIL gets ill. What happens if they don't get planning permission. Or find a suitable property. Or don't get a mortgage because SIL is on maternity leave. What happens if they want to move in 5 years, and he's not on the deeds and has no say? What happens when he needs full time care - where's the money coming from? Has he looked into deprivation of assets? Because the LA will."

This. Also, you could equally say your kids will miss him and deserve to be around their grandfather. Emotions are at work on your side too...

This really feels like a disaster in waiting...to give you an example of what happened in my family, not quite the same but close. My (72) year old auntie's son and his dp were having financial issues and wanted a clean slate. No kids. They convinced her to sell her house, buy a bigger house and move in with them in another city. She got along with her daughter in law very well at that point. Fast forward five years. They cant stand each other, the couple divorced, and they sold the house, shared proceeds with the ex. Because the DS cant afford another house with half the money, auntie moved into a care home. Care home fees are dire, DS is unemployed at the moment, scraping money from month to month, not being sure whether they'll be able to pay.

I realise that SIL and her partner have been together for a long time, but statistically, unmarried couples have a far higher chance of separating than married couples, and not only is your SIL herself vulnerable, but your father is gambling his entire estate on the assumption that they will stay together when in all likelihood, they will split up during his lifetime.

If - WHEN - that happens, he will lose his home and that 25k will be all he has left.

Even if he ring-fences his contribution of 90k to the house, which I'm pretty certain won't happen, his 130k for the cabin is irretrievable. It won't even add proportionate value to the property when it is sold.

He has every right to do all this of course, mad as it seems, but he also needs to consider his own financial future and near-certain homelessness if their relationship breaks down during his lifetime, maybe a 50/50 chance?

Apart from anything else, those cabins have a life expectancy of about 20 years max, which means that it would be GRIM when he is properly old, and there would be no money to replace it if he is still going strong at 85.

If he was 90 all this would be great. But at 65 some men are getting married again and having more children!

He has 250k from his house sale, right?

Why not buy something like this - www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/87862990#/

Keep 10k to do it up - it looks like it needs some work.

Then make a 60k contribution to their house, with the money ringfenced in the event of the relationship breaking down so that he gets his 60k back before the assets are divided.

That way his daughter's husband doesn't have to have his loathed father in law living in the back garden and he still gets this much wanted cash, which is all this comes down to anyway.

Then when your FIL dies (and I wouldn't be counting on his estate to pay for college, OP, your kids could well be married with kids of their own by the time he dies), the 60k is "released" from the ringfence to your SIL as part of her inheritance, and the remainder of his estate is divided up accordingly.

He ends up FAR better off like this, and your SIL still gets the cash injection she wants to buy a bigger house. All he can't change is getting his 60k back if he regrets the move and wants to move back to your town, but he's an adult and has to weigh up that risk.

It's reading as if he has to live in the garden to see his daughter's kids & will never see his son's kids again!

Perusmably the could rent somewhere in Skegness to vist FIL even if they couldn't stop in FIL cabin.

Though do admit we see less of my family becuase we have to pay out for accomodation on top of train fares to see them while IL will travel to us and stop and put us up when we go up there which makes it cheaper.

I can't help thinking there will be more yet to come to light about this whole situation.

I think this too but not sure OP can do much about it.

OP, it might be his choice to do as he wishes, but it impacts your family by him wanting to move in. I wouldn't let him move, I'd suggest he spends some of the £25k on a rental instead. Otherwise, he might be with you permanently, and you might have to have a very difficult conversation about him moving out at a later date.

Incidentally, if he does it the way I describe above, your SIL gets her money to buy a bigger house AND the chance of a bigger chunk of inheritance down the line as property prices go up. Short term AND long term benefits.

Equally, he could pull out of the sale he's in now, rent his house out and move to Skegness for a year and see how he likes it. He has tremendous freedom right now and he's about to give it all away to somebody who actively dislikes him.

You could try ringing Age UK and say your Dad is being manipulated into making decisions that are not in his best interests. And is being coerced into providing a larger house for your sil and he will be living in an outbuilding in the garden. . Can they suggest the best way foreward.

This cabin idea is madness at his age and will tie up all his money and make moving somewhere else impossible for him if things don't work out (which they likely won't if the sister's partner is so awful to him).

Think he should be encouraged to move up to Skegness and rent immediately and he will hopefully come to his senses and swiftish.

I would also take the 25k and keep it in trust!

Hi OP
I think the cards are on the table now and you and your DH need to have a chat about how you protect your sanity and family life and make FIL aware of a few things. And you need to put it in writing.

I would advise you write a letter saying:

• how hurt you are that he didn't discuss the plan with you both at an early stage
• how your children will miss time with grandad
• that you have concerns with the proposal from a financial and legal standpoint and believe it is not in his best interests long-term. Give examples e.g. SIL and partner separating; no planning permission granted
• that you would like him to seek independent legal advice before taking any further action
• if he is determined to go ahead, you will not be in a position to assist him should everything go wrong, and he has no assets to fall back on (i.e. money and house all gone). This includes offering him a home. He must not assume you will help and SiL will need to make provision for him regardless of circumstance
• you are OK offering him a temporary home for maximum of 8 weeks while things get sorted in Skegness. He will need to contribute towards food and utility bills etc. You expect him to move into rented accommodation after 8 weeks and understand he will have the resources to do this.

(personally I would now say he can't stay with you beyond 2 weeks as I think you are never going to get rid of him but that's your lookout)

"We asked him what would become of the Cabin if he passed away and he said that wasn’t his problem (with a smile) and said that SIL and her partner could do whatever they liked with it."

So he's happily aware his inheritance is going to be almost completely going to SIL? And just doesn't give a shit? That's a strange change from 50/50, when it would take not that much to legal lyprotect himself and you guys.

@crosspelican very logical and reasonable suggestions there that OP should raise with FIL.

And keep a copy of the letter / email ...

The most galling aspect of this is the fact that FIL and SIL have decided that he can stay with Op without involving them in the house sale or anything else for that matter.
Op and her dh and have been effectively blindsided and yet are expected to have FIL stay with them .
I think posters have been quite gentle with FIL . He has been portrayed as a kind , harmless ‘old ‘ man despite only being sixty five in good health and presumably of sound mind.
I think that he has shown himself to be quite selfish and underhanded tbh
Op and her dh have made him aware of the possible ramifications of his actions and he has insisted that he wants to go ahead.

I know that some posters have said that it is grabby to talk about inheritance particularly as FIL is still relatively young and in good health.
However, I can understand why op’s dh would feel upset about the unequal treatment. It’s not just about the fact that his sister has received this assistance, it may appear that FIL loves or favours his daughter, despite the fact that Op’s dh has been there for him. This may not be the case and FIL may just be helping his daughter because he thinks that she needs more assistance, but one can understand why op’s dh may be hurt.

If I were Op I wouldn’t agree to FIL staying.
I would ask father in law to use the £25k to find rented accommodation.
Why should op and her dh be inconvenienced when they were not involved in any discussion particularly as FIL’s stay is indefinite?
FIL agreeing to move out after a set date sounds fine in theory, but op and her dh may find it difficult to ask FIL to leave. FiL is aware of this and is probably hedging his bets.

This is a disaster waiting to happen

This makes no logical sense at all. His investment (£90k + £120k) could get him a 4 bed property in Skegness. He could get a 2 bed property for less than £90k.

yes, investing in a new property for himself in Skegness he could still give SIL the £90K, (and let them deal with social services down the line) and still have an asset thats likely to increase in value, affording him independance, the ability to move on if he met someone else, to have choice in care if he needs it, not being given the bare minimum that social services deem that he needs, and still possibly have money to leave the kids (which I hope he would be fair about in any future will, regarding the £90K)

Does FIL have any health worries ? He might not have shared them with you, but it might explain why he is acting this way if he thinks he has limited time. I do know of someone who thought they had symptoms of bowel cancer and was about to give away nearly everything thinking they had limited time left, turns out they had diverticulitis when a family member eventually convinced them to see a Doctor.

@crosspelican

I realise that SIL and her partner have been together for a long time, but statistically, unmarried couples have a far higher chance of separating than married couples, and not only is your SIL herself vulnerable, but your father is gambling his entire estate on the assumption that they will stay together when in all likelihood, they will split up during his lifetime.

If - WHEN - that happens, he will lose his home and that 25k will be all he has left.

Even if he ring-fences his contribution of 90k to the house, which I'm pretty certain won't happen, his 130k for the cabin is irretrievable. It won't even add proportionate value to the property when it is sold.

He has every right to do all this of course, mad as it seems, but he also needs to consider his own financial future and near-certain homelessness if their relationship breaks down during his lifetime, maybe a 50/50 chance?

Apart from anything else, those cabins have a life expectancy of about 20 years max, which means that it would be GRIM when he is properly old, and there would be no money to replace it if he is still going strong at 85.

If he was 90 all this would be great. But at 65 some men are getting married again and having more children!

He has 250k from his house sale, right?

Why not buy something like this - www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/87862990#/

Keep 10k to do it up - it looks like it needs some work.

Then make a 60k contribution to their house, with the money ringfenced in the event of the relationship breaking down so that he gets his 60k back before the assets are divided.

That way his daughter's husband doesn't have to have his loathed father in law living in the back garden and he still gets this much wanted cash, which is all this comes down to anyway.

Then when your FIL dies (and I wouldn't be counting on his estate to pay for college, OP, your kids could well be married with kids of their own by the time he dies), the 60k is "released" from the ringfence to your SIL as part of her inheritance, and the remainder of his estate is divided up accordingly.

He ends up FAR better off like this, and your SIL still gets the cash injection she wants to buy a bigger house. All he can't change is getting his 60k back if he regrets the move and wants to move back to your town, but he's an adult and has to weigh up that risk.

This

Morning @ThornAmongstRoses

It's all very "off".....

While yes, your FIL is well within his rights to do what he wishes, it seems to be based on quicksand.

I agree the tineline regarding your SILs pregnancy is a little odd..... in fact I surmise she may be a bit further along than 14 weeks. Although tests are alot more sensitive these days, so I could be being a bit too suspicious. But even so, it doesn't fit well with the lovely notion that FIL will be established in their garden in time to be around for the birth (providing useful childcare perhaps for the other DCs?) as sorting out said cabin, dealing with planning permission etc is unlikely to be completed and the cabin being tip top to move into.

Another thing occurs to me - SIL and BIL have two small children and jobs. and forgive me if I'm mis-remembering but this all hinges on them securing a larger property first. I know the property market is pretty fast moving but even a speedy sale and purchase would take at least 2 - 3 months and is dependent on no-one backing out at any stage, which can happen, especially if there is a chain.

Also, again, my memory of the last thread is a little hazy on details, but part of purchasing the bigger property hinges on SIL getting her promotion as I recall. Is it unfeasible that her pregnancy and looming maternity leave might impact that? I know that legally it shouldn't but right now companies looking for cost cutting measures due to Covid might wish to instigate redundancies or re-structure in other ways, and also, cos I have no idea about this, how would it all affect a mortgage?

I know I'm kind of picking on worst case scenarios here, but given the overall effects of the pandemic, which economically will last for quite some time, if I had a certain amount of assets and financial security, I wouldn't be doing anything with them that could go south in the moment. It's all the uncertainties under-pinning even getting this off the ground that bother me, as much as the apparent lack of legal input and worrying about the future.

My last thought is also that SIL and BIL will possibly struggle fitting all of this into the months before their new DC arrives. If for example the pregnancy is difficult at all, stress levels are going to be through the roof, and it would be difficult to press them to keep any momentum on Project Grandad in the Garden, while prioritising their children too. without being cast as a bit selfish / heartless.

Lastly, if FIL stays with you for a while, then has to rent near you anyway, it makes no sense. (Setting aside the possibly awkward household dynamics which others have covered).

If he really wants to be near to his other GC, his simplest, most secure option is to buy his own small property near them, then none of this would even be an issue from a standpoint of financial security.

But he's a in a right emotional bind now, isn't he, because SIL has said they need to upsize to have another child, and that is happening and if he tries to withdraw, especially if she thinks her DB has been instrumental in that decision, all hell will break out,

While I still think he's out of order keeping secrets after having a close and honest relationship with his son, I wonder if he's aware he's now in a hell of his own making and is in denial / trying to make the best of it......

Well it sounds like he really doesn't see any need to legally protect himself. Hopefully that won't backfire on him. I hope for all your sakes that your SIL has good motives.

It just seems to me that he's writing off the rest of his life to be Grandad at the bottom of the garden, which could be his life for 25 years or even more - but if he's determined to do it, what can you do?

I think you should reconsider taking the £25k. Tell him you'd like to invest in for your kids. If you're concerned about his financial future, take it and invest it, even just stick the lot in premium bonds. Then if the worst case scenario happens and he calls saying that he's unhappy and has nowhere to go and no money you might be able to offer him the cash instead of having a rest-of-life house guest.

Yes renting in Skegness from now on would be much better.

@crosspelican

Equally, he could pull out of the sale he's in now, rent his house out and move to Skegness for a year and see how he likes it. He has tremendous freedom right now and he's about to give it all away to somebody who actively dislikes him.

This!

It's mind-boggling!

Lots of ‘what ifs’ already pointed out which could easily apply, - simply as you don’t seem to know much about your SIL and her partner, having only met them a handful of times. What you do know about them doesn't instil much, if any trust.
For all you and your DH know, the partner could be in massive debt and needs money from any source available to him at any cost.
I say again, how do you know the partner isn’t coercing your SIL. ?
I think your DH isn’t seeing the wood for the trees here. He’s too shocked and emotional at the secrecy and hurt and wants it all to go away.

I would definitely take some legal/financial advice yourselves if FIL refuses to. You might have regrets if it all went wrong and you hadn’t done all you could to protect him. You might be better advised to accept the 25k for safekeeping.

@Perching

He is going to get royally shafted.

I would actually take the 25k and invest it for him. He is going to need it. At least the SIL can’t get her hands on it and you know there is a backup.

An old man in a cabin in the winter in Scotland. Madness.

Put like that it does sound grim AF

You're assuming the £25k will stay in his savings if it doesn't go to you...