Inheritance issues - part 2. AKA: Is FIL being manipulated and ripped off?

[ThornAmongstRoses]

This thread is for those who helped me on my previous thread about my FIL upping sticks, handing his a big chunk off his money over to his daughter to ultimately live in her garden. Sorry but I don’t know how to link to my previous thread.

The update from what happened last night when we confronted FIL with our concerns:

“And it turns out that SIL is 14 weeks pregnant.

Apparently when she and her partner first suggested the Cabin idea 6 months or so ago and FIL declined and said he was happy to buy somewhere so he wouldn’t be under their feet, she told him not to be silly as the arrangement would work out really well for all involved as she and her partner were hoping to have more children in the future but that they wouldn’t be able to unless they had a bigger house anyway. SIL then told him how much it would mean to her and how wonderful it would be for FIL to be around to watch new grandchildren be born and see them grow up, liked he’d been around when DB (my husband) had had his children. FIL then agreed that it would be really nice to be around for early days and from then onwards, and agreed it was something he would happy be to look into.

Anyway, it looks like SIL took that as him being board and to cut a long story short, she told FIL she was pregnant about 3 months ago but told him not to tell anyone as it was such early days (her prerogative so that’s fine). Anyhow, it appears that is why FIL put his house up for sale and sold it quickly so the new house could be bought in time for the baby’s arrival. Bit strange really seeing as the baby generally stays with the parents in their room for a good 6 months or so, but that’s the story FIL gave. Stinks of manipulation to me but FIL is clearly happy with what’s happened and he does seem excited about the idea of being around for the new baby.

We asked him what would become of the Cabin if he passed away and he said that wasn’t his problem (with a smile) and said that SIL and her partner could do whatever they liked with it.

He hasn’t looked into anything legal as he didn’t think it was necessary. We did advise it (and gave examples from this thread as reasons why he should) but he told us we are worrying unnecessarily. So that’s his choice to make.

We asked him about the time scale of him staying here which was slightly awkward but he promised us again he would only be here for a few months. We said that was unlikely and explained why (all the issues raised in this thread) but he said things would be moving along quickly and if there are any delays he would move out and rent somewhere near us until the cabin is built. I asked why he wasn’t going to rent over there to make sure he liked the area, but he said he wanted to spend as much time as he could with us before he moved away.

So yes, he seems to be going into this with an awareness of all the ins and outs and is happy to go along with it all, so that’s that. It’s all his decision and if he doesn’t take legal advice then that too is his choice.

We have told him we won’t be taking the offered £25k but thanked him for his offer. As has been said on this thread, he’s probably going to need a back-up fund.

FIL left about an hour ago and me and DH are off to bed now with a film as we feel drained. I just wanted to update you as I’ve had so much help and advice from you all.”

I had a PM this morning from a poster who had wanted to respond to my post last night but realised the thread was full so answered privately instead.

Anyhow - I just wanted to start a second thread as I’m sure others have lots of further advice based on my FIL’s revelation, and also because I doubt this is the end of the matter.

Me and DH struggled to sleep last night but we see it’s a done deal now and due to the pregnancy we know FIL isn’t going to back out the deal so now it’s a case of trying to get him to protect himself as best as he can.

Perhaps a practical way to address this is for FIL to speak to someone in the Skegness planning department and scope out the likelihood of such a large cabin being built in a garden. I know backland development in my area is strongly discouraged so checking out that planning assumption might be a practical way of putting the kibosh on this hair brained idea.

Is there any other family members or close friends who you father would trust that would have a chat with him.

FIL agreeing to move out after a set date sounds fine in theory, but op and her dh may find it difficult to ask FIL to leave. FiL is aware of this and is probably hedging his bets.

I supect this will be the case - they've turned down 25 K which would have put them in social obligated place then he went for I want to spend time with the GC here while I can.

I think the OP will end up with a long term house guest very easily - which is fine if everyone agrees the plan but I don't think OP and her DH are on board with that and I think it could easily turn OP and her DH into bad guys asking him to leave. You'd hope being clear up front and issuing reminders might mitgate that but I suspect it will turn sour.

@AndAPartridgeInABearTree

Perhaps a practical way to address this is for FIL to speak to someone in the Skegness planning department and scope out the likelihood of such a large cabin being built in a garden. I know backland development in my area is strongly discouraged so checking out that planning assumption might be a practical way of putting the kibosh on this hair brained idea.

This too - I was going to suggest a word with the planning dept. Especially in regards a normal sized back garden.

they may again be getting confused with home offices, etc, that you can build as permitted development - or you can have a room with a bedroom, so long as there is no cooking / bathing facilities - its classed as incidental to the house and can be used occassionally as an 'extra room' but the person in it is still supposed to eat and live as part of the main family in the main house.

What they are proposing comes under an annexe, and the council will view it as self contained, and want to rate it for council tax, mad as that may seem - even IF it is just in the back garden.

Plus, if they are going to the expense and planning, they would probably be far better to actually build a bone fide proper building - at least that will retain its value and isnt a temporary structure likely to disintigrate just as he needs it. After all its going to have all the electricity and plumbing anyway.

I think the OP will end up with a long term house guest very easily - which is fine if everyone agrees the plan but I don't think OP and her DH are on board with that

He'll probably have a lovely time staying with them. And if the cabin happens and he doesn't like it, or doesn't get on with his DD's DP, or finds out planning permission was needed and he is suddenly homeless, he'll have one option remaining...

I think OP and her DH stand to get shafted in more than one way. No inheritance, and a dependent elderly relative in their home. I hope I'm wrong, but as the saying goes, you plan for the worst, hope for the best. I would be furious to be put in this position.

I think your SIL didn't fall far from your FIL's tree. They both seem happy to go after what they want, and expect you (the responsible sensible ones?) to be in place in case anything goes wrong. Can't stay at her house, fine, he is going to stay at yours. All goes pear-shaped? He still has you, so what's the problem?

I have just done a quick google out of curiosity, and it all seems to depend on what sort of structure it is and what local regs are, with a hefty amount of bureaucracy etc that needs professional scrutiny. In other words, mostly over my head

Definitely worth seeing if the Skegness LA will advise on a hypothetical situation; nothing to lose by doing that. Of course not knowing the actual property it might apply to regarding garden size etc is problematic.

I wonder how much research was done before this was all proposed, or whether when SIL looks for properties suitable it will be discovered that the price is much higher than anticipated?

Shit that's awful. He is being used to facilitate SiLs wishes to grow her family and get a bigger house. I think I can guess who is going to be looking after the baby when she returns to work. What a giant mess. And I can see why he would feel he has to stick to the plan now she actually is pregnant.

This, definitely. Some PPs have talked about him being deceitful, but it sounds to me like he's being manipulated - even gaslighted - and 'fed' thoughts as to how to rationalise the situation.

Of course, buying himself a house in Skegness is the obvious solution, but that doesn't fit with SIL's scheme. I don't think she's actually all that bothered about her DF - she's just decided what would suit her and her own family, seen that her DF has assets and money and has set about the best way to get her hands on it, with him as an inconvenient factor to be dealt with as efficiently as possible.

I'm guessing that the considerable amount of money he's putting in to hugely improve her house value will soon be forgotten. It will be endless 'aren't we so kind, letting you come and live with us' and emotional blackmail to get him to stump up more money, time and big favours in 'gratitude'.

Who wants to live in a cabin, anyway? I've got 20 years on him and I wouldn't want to have to spend Winters in a cabin in somebody's garden - especially when I'd had enough to buy myself a nice big actual house of my own. Why does he get shoved into the cabin? If they want him to be so hands-on with enjoying his GC, wouldn't it be better for him to just live in a big house with them?

Is his name going on the deeds? Do they actually have planning permission for a cabin? What happens if, having taken his money and bought themselves a lovely big house, it's "Sorry, Dad, but the council won't allow us to build a cabin for you after all"? What do they do then? Make him get a mortgage on a tiny flat for himself? "Didn't you say you still had £25K left over - that would be a great deposit for a cosy little flat just for you...."

"then he went for I want to spend time with the GC here while I can."

Yes because he's never going to be able to visit the Midlands for Skeggy is he?

He really is sounding very manipulative.

I would be able to deal with the batshit idea itself (he’s an adult, has had the batshittery pointed out to him and still wants to go ahead). His call, as you said.

However, I would find the absolute deception through it all completely unacceptable and hurtful. I hate to say but this would be leading me to wash my hands of it and focus on my own immediate family. I would not be opening my home as a free hotel while their scheming all fell into place like this. Likewise I would decline the 25k which is clearly intended as a sweetener/emotional hook.

If you have him move in OP you’re a better person than me!

I'm sorry and haven't read all the threads- does he realise that if they buy the house, and it's in their name, then don't agree to the cabin- he has no recourse? Is that at all a possibility?

@Perching

He is going to get royally shafted.

I would actually take the 25k and invest it for him. He is going to need it. At least the SIL can’t get her hands on it and you know there is a backup.

An old man in a cabin in the winter in Scotland. Madness.

Please do this. In six years the "baby" will be in school and he won't be needed and will be needing some help himself. At least if you take the money you know he will have a little backup.

Unfortunately I have not had time to read all the threads, but I do hope your FIL consults a solicitor before proceeding with this venture. One of my significant other's relatives agreed with their father that he would sell his house and they would buy a larger home for their family and he would move in with them. This happened.

A few years' down the line, the family decided to move, sold the house (in which the father had no legal interest) and the father, then homeless, was thrown into the care of the local authority and ended up, miserable as hell, in a care home.

@Lampzade

I agree.
I don't think he sounds nice.

I think he sounds extremely devious.

The OP and family are being thrown aside but eh yea I need to stay with you until it no longer suits me.

OP isn't accepting the 25k, let him use it to rent.

He will be so hard to shift once he has moved in.

Once the SIL has her money, her father will be the least of her concern.

@ThornAmongstRoses I can understand him wanting to spend quality time with the other brach if his family, but putting £100k+ into a cabin is money down the drain! It won't add that amount to the property value.
I don't understand why he doesn't help DD out financially, but get himself an actual property that will hold some value? Then his lifestyle and his future will be more flexible. I don't get it either!

He is making himself terribly vulnerable. Selling SiL's house, buying a new one, getting planning consent and building a cabin is going to take a lot longer than a few months
I'd bet that he funds the bigger house and then they drag their feet/are too busy/can't get planning consent/neighbours object and the cabin never materialises
You've warned him. I'd advise him one more time to take legal advice. When SiL buys a new house she will have to demonstrate where the money came from and he will have to sign a document stating that his contribution is a gift not a loan.
But you can control your part in this. I'd point out to him, gently, that its really unfair for your children to rearrange their home, which will mean explaining that they lose their playroom or whatever but isn't it lovely cos Grandad will be there to play with them every day, just to have him leave to play with their cousins instead. They will be hurt, and you have to put them first. So he can stay with you for a maximum of say one month, then he leaves and you strongly suggest he rents near SiL so that he can look after her older children to give her a break when the new baby comes

Yabu this is a 65 year old man with full capacity he can do as he pleases with his money you can express concern but utilmately hes a grown man.

@Teardrop2021

On the surface you are quite right.

However, this thread and the last has clearly laid out that there are many pitfalls, both emotionally and financially that could bite all parties in the proverbial, if not now then further down the line.

The kneejerk reaction to unfairness to the siblings is but a small part of this, and the OP and her DH have moved on somewhat from that to realising that FIL could end up massively insecure, and worst case scenario potentially homeless and dependent on his children anyway.

A grown man of 65 resisting looking at all the legal ramifications of this propsed move is worthy of concern IMHO.

I have read both threads and I think you have to just leave him to it
I sure as hell wouldn’t be letting him stay indefinitely or changing things around in my house to accommodate him.
When it all goes wrong he will be skint and have to stay with you or will want to come back if he has moved to his daughters (which I doubt will ever happen)

I think you really do need to look now into the impact of him staying with your - the emotional blackmail of wanting to see his grandchildren have you thought about the impact of them having here all the time and then suddenly going to live with his other grandchildren.

He is an adult and you have no control over that but you do have control over the impact it has on you and your children for him living with you

I think he is best taking the money he has and renting for now and not staying with you

@LittleOwl153

As it seems there is little you can do to stop this, I would take a step back and start preparing your family.

I would not have FIL to live with you, not through sour grapes, or house space, but to protect your kids. They are used to having grandpa around alot now, constantly for maybe 12 months, then Nothing? Or 1 or 2 trips a year? That will be tough on you all, especially if tensions rise over the end move but it will feel like a bereavement for them. And if you do visit your 8yr old in particular will see grandpa who used to do loads with them, playing happy families with their cousins but not have the relationship with them that he used to. They will wonder what they did wrong. This will happen anyway but will be made worse by him living with you full time first.

You can't force him to change plan - but you can protect your kids!

This 100%

Your dc will be so used to him being there after 2 years '6 months', and then he will be gone to spend time with the other gc. They will find it hard enough anyway, let alone if he has been actually living with you!

SiL will find getting that promotion may be more difficult now if they know in 5 months she will be off on Mat leave. Yes, I know it shouldnt make a difference to employers, but if we are realistic it must do.

Just commenting on planning permission issues for the log cabin

www.logcabinhome.co.uk/blog-houses/planning/granny-annexe-planning-permission.php

Helpful summary in above link. Main issues are:

Needs planning permission - timeline 12-14 weeks for initial decision. From personal experience will be up to a year if appeals/modifications required.

Council Policy - many Councils have policy of not approving - policy in Skegness unknown presumably?

If approved, size of cabin must be proportionate to size of house and garden. Unless both huge he’s unlikely to get permission for more than a bedroom, bathroom and kitchen cum sitting room cum dining room.

As others have said my fear is that he has already agreed to give his daughter the money unconditionally and expects to live with you if the log cabin plans fall through.

You must tell him he can’t live with you and he will have to rent if he’s sold the house given away his money and his plans for the log cabin are not do-able.

What is the advantage (if any) to a cabin in the garden?

On tap help/company (in theory)?

Low bills/maintenance?

@Teardrop2021

Yabu this is a 65 year old man with full capacity he can do as he pleases with his money you can express concern but utilmately hes a grown man.

Op is not being unreasonable.

Her and her Dh are expected to put up FIL while all these plans come to fruition. FIL thinks it will be a few months but in reality there are so many things that can and will go wrong or take a lot longer than expected. Best case scenario is it will take a year.

SIL needs a promotion (whilst pregnant) in order to get a mortgage to sell her house, buy new house, get planning permission for cabin, prepare groundworks for cabin, drainage, electric etc and buy and construct a cabin.

It is a house of cards and will not work.

Hope FIL comes to his senses and has a re think.

Also there is no way that OP and her DH and DC can be isolated from stress generated if things do not go to plan, even if he does try and keep it from them, which would be really unfair as he lives with them on a potentially open ended basis, and have a right to know how things are progressing, purely from a practical point of view. If they end up with a perpetually grumpy or sad Grandad around all the time, it undermines his desire to be a positive part of their lives.

I think moving house is the most stressful thing listed after death and divorce, so plus dealing with all the buying, mortgages, planning permission etc it's alot. If SIL and BIL say they are dealing with all of that and not to worry, then lots of issues suddenly crop up which do involve him, it's going to amplify the stress levels as well.