Inheritance issues - part 2. AKA: Is FIL being manipulated and ripped off?

[ThornAmongstRoses]

This thread is for those who helped me on my previous thread about my FIL upping sticks, handing his a big chunk off his money over to his daughter to ultimately live in her garden. Sorry but I don’t know how to link to my previous thread.

The update from what happened last night when we confronted FIL with our concerns:

“And it turns out that SIL is 14 weeks pregnant.

Apparently when she and her partner first suggested the Cabin idea 6 months or so ago and FIL declined and said he was happy to buy somewhere so he wouldn’t be under their feet, she told him not to be silly as the arrangement would work out really well for all involved as she and her partner were hoping to have more children in the future but that they wouldn’t be able to unless they had a bigger house anyway. SIL then told him how much it would mean to her and how wonderful it would be for FIL to be around to watch new grandchildren be born and see them grow up, liked he’d been around when DB (my husband) had had his children. FIL then agreed that it would be really nice to be around for early days and from then onwards, and agreed it was something he would happy be to look into.

Anyway, it looks like SIL took that as him being board and to cut a long story short, she told FIL she was pregnant about 3 months ago but told him not to tell anyone as it was such early days (her prerogative so that’s fine). Anyhow, it appears that is why FIL put his house up for sale and sold it quickly so the new house could be bought in time for the baby’s arrival. Bit strange really seeing as the baby generally stays with the parents in their room for a good 6 months or so, but that’s the story FIL gave. Stinks of manipulation to me but FIL is clearly happy with what’s happened and he does seem excited about the idea of being around for the new baby.

We asked him what would become of the Cabin if he passed away and he said that wasn’t his problem (with a smile) and said that SIL and her partner could do whatever they liked with it.

He hasn’t looked into anything legal as he didn’t think it was necessary. We did advise it (and gave examples from this thread as reasons why he should) but he told us we are worrying unnecessarily. So that’s his choice to make.

We asked him about the time scale of him staying here which was slightly awkward but he promised us again he would only be here for a few months. We said that was unlikely and explained why (all the issues raised in this thread) but he said things would be moving along quickly and if there are any delays he would move out and rent somewhere near us until the cabin is built. I asked why he wasn’t going to rent over there to make sure he liked the area, but he said he wanted to spend as much time as he could with us before he moved away.

So yes, he seems to be going into this with an awareness of all the ins and outs and is happy to go along with it all, so that’s that. It’s all his decision and if he doesn’t take legal advice then that too is his choice.

We have told him we won’t be taking the offered £25k but thanked him for his offer. As has been said on this thread, he’s probably going to need a back-up fund.

FIL left about an hour ago and me and DH are off to bed now with a film as we feel drained. I just wanted to update you as I’ve had so much help and advice from you all.”

I had a PM this morning from a poster who had wanted to respond to my post last night but realised the thread was full so answered privately instead.

Anyhow - I just wanted to start a second thread as I’m sure others have lots of further advice based on my FIL’s revelation, and also because I doubt this is the end of the matter.

Me and DH struggled to sleep last night but we see it’s a done deal now and due to the pregnancy we know FIL isn’t going to back out the deal so now it’s a case of trying to get him to protect himself as best as he can.

I mentioned before care home fees.
How does he fund them. No home to sell.

Honestly OP I think you should have taken the 25k, and I also think you should have straight out asked him if you have done anything to offend him that he is disinheriting you and leaving all his money to SIL. I'd also ask him if he ever spoke to his wife about what she wanted to do with her share of her inheritance, and how she would feel about disinheriting your DH.

That might sound nuclear, it might even sound grabby. But ultimately you've let him skirt around that, for fear of sounding like you're all about the money. I think you should force him to explain it to your face. Unequal inheritances, and upset about them, are so often more about why one child is favoured than the actual money as seems to be the case here. And ultimately your late MIL's wishes are also being ignored here. Its often easy for parents to favour the 'difficult' child as they know the other won't make a fuss, I think the time has come for you to make a fuss.

Its the norm for spouses to leave everything to each other and trust that will ultimately be divided among the children. I know of one case where the husband quite quickly, and brutally, remarried a much younger woman shortly after his wife's death and left the country. I have no doubt that if she anticipated that she would have left a good chunk of her assets directly to her children but she never saw it coming, and neither did they. I assume your MIL wouldn't have wanted this outcome.

At a minimum, as others have said, take the 25k and keep it safe for him. He almost certainly will need it. Agree a move-out date with him now: not 'a few months' - something like, ok well if it isn't all sorted by end of June/July/whatever you choose we'll. need the bedroom back. Ask at regular intervals what progress is made.

He's been a fool, and could do with speaking to a solicitor. I think one way to encourage that might be to say if things aren't done properly his daughter could lose her home if he ever needed care but in all honesty most 65 year olds aren't going to see that as a real risk.

OP you could seek advice from age concern (but not tell your FIL) about your worries that (at best) your FIL is showing very poor judgement. Could he be suffering from early onset dementia? Yes he’s only 65 - but it happens and sadly did happen to a good friend whose capacity deteriorated sharply in his early 60s. He was in residential care aged 67. Age Concern can explain your options.

I would withdraw permission for him to live with you in the interim. It's just taking advantage and quite galling.

"Not my problem," with a smile. Indeed.

What happens about the DD’s promotion? If she’s pregnant, depending how far along she is surely she’ll be going to maternity pay which I would’ve thought would effect the mortgage. And who is going to be doing the childcare for this new child if DD plans to return to work? Has your FIL got any other savings? Unfortunately it sounds like his DD and her partner wanted more children, couldn’t afford a bigger house and have seized upon your FIL with the promise of being with his grandchildren and living “with” them.

I’d agree with a previous poster about an email outlining your concerns. I’d also seek some legal advice yourselves so at least you would have an understanding of what should be happening. When things have calmed down could your DH talk to his sister again? Suggest that their dad buys a place of his own.

Thanks Nettletea - I wasn’t sure at all, but your clarification has made this situation even more worrying. I agree that it is essential given what local authorities can do regarding past sale of property that FIL gets professional advice. If he could be seen as evading paying for care in the future the costs of any such care could be very serious.
I’ve just reminded of a situation faced by friends of my DF. Not the same as they only had one child but they bought together with parents putting in the larger share but did not get it legally sorted out what the share was. Fallouts etc have led to parents wanting out and house has been sold and have ended up with40 percent of sale when they put in way more.

Yes. Take the money. No point cutting off your nose to spite your face. It might be the only money you'll ever get from him. Save it for him or for your kids' university fund.

Would a cabin cost as much as 100k? Surely you could buy an actual flat/house for that in Skegness rather than a cabin in the garden.

Strange how she is 14 weeks pregnant (3 months) yet told her father she was pregnant 3 months ago...must have told him day after conception

Well you have done all you can and pointed out the pitfalls. I feel sorry for your husband and children , his dad and sister has rather betrayed him, keeping it all secret and now just expects to move in with you as if nothing has happened .

@BRB2021

Strange how she is 14 weeks pregnant (3 months) yet told her father she was pregnant 3 months ago...must have told him day after conception

I was thinking same, as you can't even know you're pregnant until week 4 or 5... but assumed op had been vague with timescales perhaps on purpose if changing details...

@Levirandal makes a very good point. If SIL is now pregnant there’s a very good chance her promotion will not happen or will be postponed until after she returns from maternity leave which means no additional income for the mortgage application.

To explain- hostile son in law refused to sell unless he and daughter got 60 per cent and parents felt they had no choice but to accept. Situation was difficult for years .

@crowsfeet57

What security will he have once he hands over the money? Is he confident they will actually build the cabin? Are YOU confident they will actually follow through?

SIL could end up with a nice big house and you could end up with FIL living with you permanently.

This is what will happen and probably what SIL has in mind.

I can't get over a 65-year-old liquidating his assets and handing them away. What if he lives 25 more years?

OP, I realize you're between a rock and a hard place but I'd forbid him to move in. Wash your hands of the whole thing, as your opinions clearly are not valued. And tell him that.

Also, can you not get on a zoom with FIL and SIL, and ask her the hard questions?

Sorry not read every single post....but, do they really think SIL will get planning permission for a large cabin in her new garden!? Surely that’s not guaranteed!!!

@ThornAmongstRoses

This thread is for those who helped me on my previous thread about my FIL upping sticks, handing his a big chunk off his money over to his daughter to ultimately live in her garden. Sorry but I don’t know how to link to my previous thread.

The update from what happened last night when we confronted FIL with our concerns:

“And it turns out that SIL is 14 weeks pregnant.

Apparently when she and her partner first suggested the Cabin idea 6 months or so ago and FIL declined and said he was happy to buy somewhere so he wouldn’t be under their feet, she told him not to be silly as the arrangement would work out really well for all involved as she and her partner were hoping to have more children in the future but that they wouldn’t be able to unless they had a bigger house anyway. SIL then told him how much it would mean to her and how wonderful it would be for FIL to be around to watch new grandchildren be born and see them grow up, liked he’d been around when DB (my husband) had had his children. FIL then agreed that it would be really nice to be around for early days and from then onwards, and agreed it was something he would happy be to look into.

Anyway, it looks like SIL took that as him being board and to cut a long story short, she told FIL she was pregnant about 3 months ago but told him not to tell anyone as it was such early days (her prerogative so that’s fine). Anyhow, it appears that is why FIL put his house up for sale and sold it quickly so the new house could be bought in time for the baby’s arrival. Bit strange really seeing as the baby generally stays with the parents in their room for a good 6 months or so, but that’s the story FIL gave. Stinks of manipulation to me but FIL is clearly happy with what’s happened and he does seem excited about the idea of being around for the new baby.

We asked him what would become of the Cabin if he passed away and he said that wasn’t his problem (with a smile) and said that SIL and her partner could do whatever they liked with it.

He hasn’t looked into anything legal as he didn’t think it was necessary. We did advise it (and gave examples from this thread as reasons why he should) but he told us we are worrying unnecessarily. So that’s his choice to make.

We asked him about the time scale of him staying here which was slightly awkward but he promised us again he would only be here for a few months. We said that was unlikely and explained why (all the issues raised in this thread) but he said things would be moving along quickly and if there are any delays he would move out and rent somewhere near us until the cabin is built. I asked why he wasn’t going to rent over there to make sure he liked the area, but he said he wanted to spend as much time as he could with us before he moved away.

So yes, he seems to be going into this with an awareness of all the ins and outs and is happy to go along with it all, so that’s that. It’s all his decision and if he doesn’t take legal advice then that too is his choice.

We have told him we won’t be taking the offered £25k but thanked him for his offer. As has been said on this thread, he’s probably going to need a back-up fund.

FIL left about an hour ago and me and DH are off to bed now with a film as we feel drained. I just wanted to update you as I’ve had so much help and advice from you all.”

I had a PM this morning from a poster who had wanted to respond to my post last night but realised the thread was full so answered privately instead.

Anyhow - I just wanted to start a second thread as I’m sure others have lots of further advice based on my FIL’s revelation, and also because I doubt this is the end of the matter.

Me and DH struggled to sleep last night but we see it’s a done deal now and due to the pregnancy we know FIL isn’t going to back out the deal so now it’s a case of trying to get him to protect himself as best as he can.

I've think you and your husband have done what you can, considering you were not consulted beforehand as to whether you thought the idea was sensible or not.

My in laws did something slightly similar - bought a house without telling us (though DH speaks to them on the phone weekly). They said they were going to rent it out (sold an annuity to purchase it which was subsiding their small pension) - but ended up letting SIL live there for free which was inevitable all along. Now they have no money.

Sometimes you have to accept that people make mistakes and there is nothing you can do to protect them, especially if it seems they WANT to make the mistake which is why they don't consult you until it is too late for sensible advice.

Also, I think you should take the 25k and put it into a savings account. Even if you end up taking it out to give to him it protects the money from your SIL getting her hands on it.

I think, like others, you have to let him make his own decisions and just be there for him if it goes wrong. One query though, would it not be better for you to take the 25k (over a couple of years to avoid paying too much tax) and keep it in a bank account for him- at least then it won’t get tied up in the cabin scheme!

Agree with name change above - I think it is time to sit him down (again) and speak more plainly to him . It sounds as though he doesn’t realise what he is doing with regard to his property and where it might go when he dies or indeed what might happen if it doesn’t work out. I would also speak to SIL even if you don’t call her out - but you ask her what the plan is if ... (various scenarios).

So what is your FIL going to do if he comes home one day and SIL says that she doesn't want him living in the garden?

OP,

The level of naivety and willful stupidity your young FIL is displaying is staggering.

He is giving away his money, freedom and options for the future.

That cabin will be worthless to him if the house has to be sold or the relationship of his daughter fails or he and his daughter have a fallout.

They could ask him to leave THEIR home at anytime.

Not to mind the unsuitability of the cabin long term.

My concern in this is that through all the deviousness of his actions over the past months, and your SIL's presumption that he would just stay with you in an open ended arrangement with no consultation, tells me they all seem to think you and your husband are dim, weak and can be made utter fools of.

Your FIL's deceit and disrespect of ye is clear.

He asked to move in with you under a false premise.
That was so dishonest and deceitful and deliberate.

He also probably thinks he'll have your home as backup plan if it goes tits up and his money is gone.

Unfortunately you and your husband are also giving him that impression too.

I mean it kindly but ye are mugs.
Ye snd your home are being totally taken for granted, and totally disrespected.

He deliberately misled you for 6 months but now wants to move in.

He needs a dose of reality.
He needs to see the consequences of this.
.
He needs to be told he has been extremely dishonest and disrespectful towards ye.

He needs to find accommodation if he goes forward with the sale of the house.

Otherwise OP, ye are mugs, being totally inconvenienced, in your home and home office, by someone who was very disrespectful and dishonest.

I think your husband's upset is partly because he realises that your FIL has been so disrespectful of him.

If he had been honest and said he was moving to a small house there and ye could visit, fair enough, his choice.
But he didn't.
Every conversation over 6 months was a lie.
He lied and lied about his plans and deliberately misled you.
Not the actions of a nice man who has been looked after so well.
He chose to behave in a dishonest way.

Do you honestly ever seen you visiting him and being made welcome in his cabin? Should it ever happen?
Unlikely.

I think he has spelt out disregard for ye.

I would withdraw the agreement to him staying as it's too open ended and tell him to rent either up by his daughter or near his old home. His choice.

His daughter is expecting you to sort out his home and pack it up as well I suppose.

He should pay someone to do that.
I doubt she will be anywhere to be seen.

For me, his dishonesty is the key to all of this.
This is what should inform your involvement going forward.

Presumably he is dealing with a solicitor in relation to the sale of his existing house. Solicitor would not usually just sell a house for someone elderly who is divesting hinself of his only asset without talking through his future accommodation needs & safeguarding any remaining sale proceeds. If it sounds in any was iffy to solicitor (such as.cabin in garden) they would alert to risks & advise BUT client does absolutely not have to listen or take the advice. Can you check with your DH's solicitor that s/he is aware of the plan for his future accommodation? Solicitor will not break solicitor /client privilege & discuss all matters with you but likely will listen to what you have to say & let you know either s/he is aware or will discuss it with FIL (suggesting perhaps not aware). You should limit the information to the facts & beware of referencing DH's inheritance (because it does give the wrong impression really) just stick to very quick sale potentially at an undervalue (or not best possible price), SIL (& BIL) relationship with FIL up to now, they want a bigger house, FIL suggested small house nearby, they want cabin on their property, FIL will have no title & up to £200k of his sale proceeds will be sunk into it with no comeback, isolating... lack of opportunity for visits from DS (as not FIL's own home). You want to make sure he is 100% going into this with his eyes open & is very aware of real risks if promises are not kept or it doesn't work out or it turns out he doesn't like his decision or his cabin. Do ph solicitor & raise the red flag for him.

Just sat waiting for a meeting to start and catching up. As some posters have said I hope the discussion we had last night at least plants some seeds of doubt in his mind.

In terms of pregnancy dates I thought the same....but either SIL isn’t telling FIL the truth about the timeline or he isn’t telling us the truth. Call me cynical but I imagine it’s the first.

Although I didn’t really have any opinion on SIL before (although didn’t agree with her actions towards how little effort she made with her parents and how she allowed her partner to treat them) my opinion now has changed to one of distrust. I don’t know if we should trust anything she says, including all pregnancy stuff. Could even be a lie for all we know. I’m sure it isn’t though, that’s pretty low, but I just don’t believe she is being truly honest with FIL about it.

As someone said, there’s no reason why FIL couldn’t have just gifted her the money for a bigger house yet still retained his dependence by buying a smaller property of his own.

After having slept on the explanation he gave I can’t say things seem any clearer. But I stand by what I said, whatever the true reason behind all this is, it’s his choice to do as he wishes. We’ve expressed our worries and he’s dismissed them so not much we can do sadly.

At the end of the day he wants to spend his retirement by the coast and to be near to his daughter and existing grandchildren and any new ones that follow. He can’t be blamed for that I guess but the way it’s happening is just madness.

I can't get over the fact he's only 65! Is he even retired yet? He's happy to live for the next 20 years in a cabin in the garden, looking out at the big house that he's largely paid for? And if it all goes wrong (and it will go wrong) it will be you housing him in his old age and bearing the financial cost.

There are some nice looking properties on Rightmove in Skegness around the 110/120k mark, rather than wasting that amount on a glorified shed that has no resale value. Perhaps he could be encouraged to view a couple of them?