Inheritance issues - part 2. AKA: Is FIL being manipulated and ripped off?

[ThornAmongstRoses]

This thread is for those who helped me on my previous thread about my FIL upping sticks, handing his a big chunk off his money over to his daughter to ultimately live in her garden. Sorry but I don’t know how to link to my previous thread.

The update from what happened last night when we confronted FIL with our concerns:

“And it turns out that SIL is 14 weeks pregnant.

Apparently when she and her partner first suggested the Cabin idea 6 months or so ago and FIL declined and said he was happy to buy somewhere so he wouldn’t be under their feet, she told him not to be silly as the arrangement would work out really well for all involved as she and her partner were hoping to have more children in the future but that they wouldn’t be able to unless they had a bigger house anyway. SIL then told him how much it would mean to her and how wonderful it would be for FIL to be around to watch new grandchildren be born and see them grow up, liked he’d been around when DB (my husband) had had his children. FIL then agreed that it would be really nice to be around for early days and from then onwards, and agreed it was something he would happy be to look into.

Anyway, it looks like SIL took that as him being board and to cut a long story short, she told FIL she was pregnant about 3 months ago but told him not to tell anyone as it was such early days (her prerogative so that’s fine). Anyhow, it appears that is why FIL put his house up for sale and sold it quickly so the new house could be bought in time for the baby’s arrival. Bit strange really seeing as the baby generally stays with the parents in their room for a good 6 months or so, but that’s the story FIL gave. Stinks of manipulation to me but FIL is clearly happy with what’s happened and he does seem excited about the idea of being around for the new baby.

We asked him what would become of the Cabin if he passed away and he said that wasn’t his problem (with a smile) and said that SIL and her partner could do whatever they liked with it.

He hasn’t looked into anything legal as he didn’t think it was necessary. We did advise it (and gave examples from this thread as reasons why he should) but he told us we are worrying unnecessarily. So that’s his choice to make.

We asked him about the time scale of him staying here which was slightly awkward but he promised us again he would only be here for a few months. We said that was unlikely and explained why (all the issues raised in this thread) but he said things would be moving along quickly and if there are any delays he would move out and rent somewhere near us until the cabin is built. I asked why he wasn’t going to rent over there to make sure he liked the area, but he said he wanted to spend as much time as he could with us before he moved away.

So yes, he seems to be going into this with an awareness of all the ins and outs and is happy to go along with it all, so that’s that. It’s all his decision and if he doesn’t take legal advice then that too is his choice.

We have told him we won’t be taking the offered £25k but thanked him for his offer. As has been said on this thread, he’s probably going to need a back-up fund.

FIL left about an hour ago and me and DH are off to bed now with a film as we feel drained. I just wanted to update you as I’ve had so much help and advice from you all.”

I had a PM this morning from a poster who had wanted to respond to my post last night but realised the thread was full so answered privately instead.

Anyhow - I just wanted to start a second thread as I’m sure others have lots of further advice based on my FIL’s revelation, and also because I doubt this is the end of the matter.

Me and DH struggled to sleep last night but we see it’s a done deal now and due to the pregnancy we know FIL isn’t going to back out the deal so now it’s a case of trying to get him to protect himself as best as he can.

if she was in any way decent she’d at least let him stay with them as soon as the new house was bought until the house until his Cabin was built. She said she’d think about it but her DP wouldn’t be happy about it.

But more than happy to take FIL's money, obviously . . .

@ZorbaTheHoarder

Just tell him how incredibly miserable it would be (as a pp said) to be sitting on his own in a cabin in the garden, knowing that he wasn't welcome in his own daughter's house (that he had paid for)!

Feeling unwanted and rejected - and increasingly broke - what a prospect for the next few years!

His daughter should be ashamed of herself.

This.

Why would he set himself up for such a dreary existence?

knowing that he’d be causing very significant practical disruption to the lives of his son and DIL and their children for 3 months, however close their relationship, could then turn round and coolly expect them to be fine with that plan changing abruptly to TEN months minimum
Father-in-law fondly imagined himself to be a cherished and adored patriarch, respected and revered head of the family whose son and daughter will selflessly put aside their own needs in order to cater for his every wish
he hope they would demonstrate their devotion and loyalty by declaring that it would be an honour and a pleasure to extend their hospitality for as long as he desired it
sister-in-law sensed this and realised that if she could indulge his fantasy, could find a way to make him think this would come true .... she'd be quids in💰🤑💰
she didn't care that it was all illusion because she be laughing all the way to the bank long before everyone realised💰💰💰

@SchadenfreudePersonified

if she was in any way decent she’d at least let him stay with them as soon as the new house was bought until the house until his Cabin was built. She said she’d think about it but her DP wouldn’t be happy about it.

But more than happy to take FIL's money, obviously . . .

This 100%. The brass neck of the sisters partner, and her for colluding in it. They sound like pretty dreadful people, lacking in any integrity. And these are the people the FIL is throwing his lot in with

@ThornAmongstRoses

I did ask why they hadn’t considered buying somewhere with an annexe already attached but he said SIL’s DP would never agree to it because he wouldn’t want him as a fixture in the family home.

This sums it up - SIL's DP is happy enough to see FIL give up his home and take £90k from him but beyond that, he doesn't want much else to do with him.

Your FIL now needs to pull out from the house sale.

Who is driving this timeline to expedite his under valued house sale?

It's certainly not you. It's not FIL so I am assuming it's SIL.

In which case it is her that needs to get her arse in gear.

IF she needs to get the promotion / higher wage + £90k to get her desired house, she needs to secure that promotion and sort out the mortgage. Nothing should happen before this point.

By the way, I am calling BS on the promotion / higher wage story.

If she just wants the £90k on her current wage she should just come clean. There is no need for this rush for this cluster fuck of a plan.

Does SIL want to be in the new house before the baby is born? In which case the mortgage will have to be worked out on her current wage - she should do that right now if she is really serious.

Is SIL still going on about the cabin or is it just wanting to get the £90k for a deposit?

I am absolutely aghast that SILDH is prepared to accept £90K but doesn't want FIL 'living with them' ... and is prepared to admit this out loud!! It absolutely beggars belief.

What amazes me is at 65. He may live another 25 years, is this all he has left to aspire to ?
Like on the other thread where a 65 yr neighbour has a siesta from 2 - 5 o/c everyday. They are retired not on a waiting list to die.
All the people I know of that age are active, walk, go to the gym, date !!!!

Btw Tell him your DH will come with him to see the solicitor.
So that both have understood the information

My experience of having an in-law living close by is that when you are retired you really need your own life/friends to keep you busy. It's really not enough to have close relatives living nearby who invite you over once or twice a week because they are working/kids activities the rest of it.

What you want when you are retired is to be able to go out for lunch with a friend, go for a cup of coffee, go to the cinema, do things together with people who have free time in the same way as you do. Not be constantly waiting for busy people to have time. Where can your FIL best find that?

I wouldn’t think of this development as things going downhill- more like the balloon of ridiculous fancy being popped before it floated off out of reach. Hopefully your FIL will be brought down to earth with a bit of a bump by a plain-speaking solicitor, rather than left high and dry by his daughter and son-in-law.

What you want when you are retired is to be able to go out for lunch with a friend, go for a cup of coffee, go to the cinema, do things together with people who have free time in the same way as you do. Not be constantly waiting for busy people to have time. Where can your FIL best find that?

New Zealand at the moment!

Has DH suggested to FIL that SIL & BIL don't want him to live near them at all?

That if they don't want him in their house even short term, even once they have a larger home, they don't want him in an annexe as that is too close to them, why would they want him in their garden?

And what is it that FIL thinks he will gain from moving to a cabin? He is currently actively choosing NOT to rent a place close to SIL. Why wouldn't he? Does SIL not want this? Wouldn't she prefer he rented close to her not in your home town?

And if it's FIL who doesn't want to rent in Skegness even though it's presumably cheaper than renting near you, why doesn't he? It all makes zero sense.

I think DH needs to tell FIL how he sees this playing out and to say that you are not a backstop position when FIL has given all his money away to SIL and ends up with no home and a DD who has taken all his money but never in reality wanted him to live with her and will take no responsibility for him.

There is another scenario where FIL either keeps his current house or downsizes locally and builds up his social life, maybe finds a new partner. He is 65 and presumably in good health, he has many opportunities open to him to live a good life.

DH could also ask FIL why he thinks it's ok to financially favour one child as he is proposing to, and what his reasons were for deceiving you both so hugely and for so long.

Apologies if this has already been said as I haven't read everything, but do your FIL and SIL realise that it's pretty difficult to find property where you can effectively build another house on the land?

Even if it is just a cabin, if it's connected to services, especially water, and lived in all year round it's a permanent dwelling. Planning could take months and months.
Have any of them considered that this necessity will severely restrict options of houses to buy?
Have your SIL or FIL spoken to the planning department of the area you want to buy in ?

I know of two people who built/had cabins in their gardens - the first wasn't allowed to have any plumbing to prevent it being considered a dwelling and the second could only be used for work or storage (these were in urban settings though).

they want to buy in not you

@billy1966

The idea that sitting in a garden cabin looking in at a busy house full of people that really don't want you in their lives except for the money you provide and babysitting duties. Unbelievable.

Selling his house for a song.
His wife must be turning in her grave at the stupidity.

Detach OP as much as you can.

Being around such determined stupidity really isn't good for your health.

Exactly this.

They want his money, not him. They've made that clear.

Hence the demand that OP and her husband house him for DIL's needs, but she couldn't possibly house him herself for her own damn needs. You couldn't make it up!

And he wants a garden view of being unwanted once the cash is in their own accounts.

having had an elder relation badly ripped off by an estate agent who did the classic persauding relation to sell low to someone who we are certain had given a backhander to the EA. I'd suggest, however tense things are with FIL, to somehow make it known to EA that any sale FIL makes below market value will have the big guns investigating the agent for elder financial abuse.

@ThornAmongstRoses

I did ask why they hadn’t considered buying somewhere with an annexe already attached but he said SIL’s DP would never agree to it because he wouldn’t want him as a fixture in the family home.

So just going a bit further than that, how much interaction would he have?

Maybe he thinks that if he sees enough of the kids then he would be OK?

But it's not that long before kids are off to friends or friends are roung & Grandpa is forgotten.

The signs are there-he just needs to stop ignoring them.

As much as he wants to help his daughter, how can he bear the thought of someone who hates(?) him benefitting?

@tobedtoMNandfart

I am absolutely aghast that SILDH is prepared to accept £90K but doesn't want FIL 'living with them' ... and is prepared to admit this out loud!! It absolutely beggars belief.

This ^

So the OP is a woman and has to put up and shut up but SIL's 'D'P who DEMANDS all the cash thinks it is his BIL's responsibility to house FIL?!

OP, probably your FIL said that he will seek legal advice to appease you and let him move in "temporarily" (the 3 motth time frame might re-appear to appease you!). And even if he does, he will probaly not listen, make himself homeless and in the end YOU will have to house him, even if it is a few years down the line. Make it absolutely clear to him and that there is no way you will be available, otherwise he will never pull out of the sale.

As he got an offer so quickly on his house, a much better option would be to hang on in his house and wait until a property is found then he puts his house on the market (could you suggest this ?). That way he isn't wasting money on rent and has time to really consider all his options.

It just gets worse and worse.

He should downsize to a cheaper property and just give SIL what's left over if he is so intent on helping her out at any cost.

What a mess!

Can your DH email his sister and cc in his dad and ask if hes got it all right, she wanted their father to be homeless because he's selling his home to fund a bigger house for SIL and her partner because they've got another baby on the way, but their dad won't be allowed to live in the house he's paying for, or even be on the deeds because her partner doesn't like him. They will let him live in a shed at the bottom of their new garden, but only if he pays for the shed. He won't have any right to live in the shed long term, and his continued living there will be dependent on him providing free childcare, so unable to spend his retirement making new friends and having hobbies. At any point, the partner who won't let their dad live in the house can throw him out of the shed and he'll have no legal right to complain. If sister and her partner sell the house, they are under no legal obligation to give dad back his money or house him. The shed will have to be replaced at least once in his expected lifetime. There will be no money left for this. The shed will not even exist at the point dad hands over the money from the sale of his home. It is expected to take about a year until he can move in, sister's partner will not let dad live with them in the interim, as previously mentioned, he doesn't like dad enough to let him be in the house. That your dh can understand why their dad wants to help his sister. He's struggling to understand why she's decided to destroy his financial security in old age.

Perhaps seeing it written down will help FIL and SIL see how bad it looks.

@SittingAround1

As he got an offer so quickly on his house, a much better option would be to hang on in his house and wait until a property is found then he puts his house on the market (could you suggest this ?). That way he isn't wasting money on rent and has time to really consider all his options.

Agree, that would be a better idea. I also agree with the pp who suggested that you need to tell him that he can't move in with you if things go wrong a few years down the line. It might make him think twice about his plan. If he wants to give SIL the money, he needs to downsize and forget about the cabin idea, because you are not his plan B.

I'm glad you have decided that he can't move in with you now. I'm torn between feeling sad for him for the situation with SIL, and annoyed that he deceived you and DH. Be there for him, but not to the detriment of your DH and DC, and make it clear that he can never move in with you if things go wrong. You have warned him and been there for him, he can't turn your family life upside down just because he won't listen to reason.

Apologies if already mentioned, but what happens if in the unfortunate event the SIL dies before the FIL ?

Assuming the SIL's DH would inherit the house he would then be able to kick out the FIL or sell up and not give him any money to buy a new place.
Since the DH has already expressed his unwillingness to have FIL in his house it's unlikely he'd care for FIL if the worst would happen.

I did ask why they hadn’t considered buying somewhere with an annexe already attached but he said SIL’s DP would never agree to it because he wouldn’t want him as a fixture in the family home.

And there were no alarm bells ringing for him at that point?? The cabin is supposed to be for the rest of his lifetime. That makes him a fixture. What if it needs repairs, is he supposed to check into a hotel?

A good solicitor should advise him to protect his stake in their house. It would enable him to keep the power balance slightly more level at least.

If he doesn't get on with his daughter, realistically living in the garden won't help-nor will giving money for that matter! & wouldn't he resent being free childcare (if that were to happen)?