To be a true feminism, I need to address my own misandry?

[FerrisWheelTrain]

For example - are terms like LTB sexist?

thepeople
Love your username.

Excellent post.

@thepeopleversuswork

OP I've lurked throughout this thread: you've had a bit of a roasting on here and I understand why but just to try to explain kindly why people are finding your posts frustrating but in (hopefully) the most useful way:

What you seem to be doing is falling into the traditional response trap which misogynistic men actively cultivate, which is a false equivalence between misogyny and "misandry". (I'm not going to argue the toss about whether misandry exists -- let's assume it does.)

What feminism has sought to do, as Hufflepuffsunite says, is to centre women and focus on the numerous ways in which society is structured to benefit men against women. This is an article of faith for feminists (and a belief I share).

What a lot of men and female misogynists have tried to do in response to this is to posit the argument that men and women are already equal in society (which they are not) and therefore that any criticism of men because of the behaviour of men as a class is automatically sexist. Hence the arguments around misandry and the #notallmen culture etc.

This argument is very seductive: of course not every single man is a rapist or a domestic abuser. No one has argued that they are.

What this fails to acknowledge is that sexism is a structural problem, not an individual one (though there are individual sexists). Women are disadvantaged as a class by men as a class. They earn less, they do more domestic labour, they are subject to more arbitrary societal rules governing their sexual and romantic lives, they find it harder to advance at work due to workplace rules which benefit men, they are subject to arbitrary violence because of their sex. I could go on but you hopefully get the picture. None of these societal rules apply to men because they are men.

This doesn't mean that men don't experience the same kinds of discrimination in society, they do. But this discrimination is not happening because of their sex, it is happening because of other societal and individual factors.

What people are trying to get across to you is that you have no obligation to always consider men's needs and feelings out of a sense of (false) equivalence. Because there is no equivalence. It's perfectly legitimate to be considerate and thoughtful to men and not to be gratuitously unpleasant to them because they are men. But you don't owe them an obligation of considering their equality needs. Because society already does that perfectly well for them alreaady.

I hope that makes a bit more sense?

This is a brilliant post.

Great post thepeopleversuswork

There’s a difference between a legal system which works on the principal of innocent until proven guilty and a discussion board where people come for advice.

If a poster says that their husband has strangled them and they wonder if there’s anything they can do to stop it happening again, 100% of posters would say LTB.

If that same woman went to the police and told them that her husband had strangled her, there would be a burden of proof on her and her legal representatives before he was tried and convicted of bodily harm or attempted murder.

Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

I haven’t read the recent updates about the word misandry so correct me if I’ve got it wrong. Misandry is definitely a word, I just wrote it. Whether or not it is a phenomenon worthy of passing legislation to prevent and address it is debatable.

If I say that all men are trash, I don’t mean every single one. It’s an exaggeration and generalisation to make a point. My DSs and DP are lovely, but I have enough experience of not lovely men to say that without a shred of guilt. If some guy had been repeatedly harassed, attacked, raped, drugged, used and generally abused by women I would have no problem with him saying all women are bitches, because in his experience enough of them are as to make that an option he holds. I wouldn’t be upset by it as I know I’m not one of them and he’s not actually talking about me, having never met me, been in a relationship with me or had any interaction with me.

*opinion

Well, what a right load of time-wasting cobblers this has been.

I don't think that went quite how the OP hoped but it was good of them to let us know where they were trying to get to.

'Looks like I need to learn some serious lessons. So - am I right to think the following - in my pursuit of feminism:

1. that I should be educating my son and daughter that bastard is a perfectly acceptable term to use against anyone - especially a man (as per the dictionary definition). Bitch is never acceptable.
2. you should always presume a man is culpable if anyone speaks of abuse 3)misandry is not a word, and hate crimes are never committed against men. Is this what I need to learn? If so - I shall re-educate myself and be a better person. '

I've seen better attempts at uncovering what feminists 'really' think on MN tbh.

What people are trying to get across to you is that you have no obligation to always consider men's needs and feelings out of a sense of (false) equivalence. Because there is no equivalence. It's perfectly legitimate to be considerate and thoughtful to men and not to be gratuitously unpleasant to them because they are men. But you don't owe them an obligation of considering their equality needs. Because society already does that perfectly well for them alreaady.

This bit is good. Yes.

Women are disadvantaged as a class by men as a class. They earn less, they do more domestic labour, they are subject to more arbitrary societal rules governing their sexual and romantic lives, they find it harder to advance at work due to workplace rules which benefit men, they are subject to arbitrary violence because of their sex. I could go on but you hopefully get the picture. None of these societal rules apply to men because they are men.

This bit I take issue with. In so far as I can only process it in the light of my own experience, which is my right as an individual, and in an discussion about absolute equality, we probably should start from the premiss that each individual has a right to express their understanding as a result of their experience, and for that understanding/contribution to the picture of the truth to be considered valid/valuable.

So. I don't know if I've been lucky. I don't know if my parents were particularly cool, my (girls') schools amazing, all the boys I knew at school and university exceptional, and most of my experience of the adult world of work, general interaction and life unusually sheltered, but: I have honestly, honestly never felt disadvantaged. Not in the least. Not in the slightest. I've encountered rank sexism, yes - in individuals. As a seam running through groups from particular cultures. But I have not found that in my adult life in the UK as a woman I feel in any way disadvantaged, through being a woman.

So I have to say that. Don't drown me out. My voice is as valuable as yours. If you want anyone to listen to you or take your conclusions seriously, then you must respect all voices. (I wanted then to say 'especially female', but actually no, not because of that ; )

If the OP genuinely wanted to understand the nature and nuances of feminism, they would have gone to the feminism boards and asked and then listened.

There have been some fantastic erudite responses here and all undeserved by the OP who went on to disingenuously and with faux naivety boil it all down to a bastardised set of values to teach 'her' children. Although I suspect the OP is male by the nature of their questions. Answer this! Explain that!

I fear NiceGerbil is right, this is some daft attempt to uncover what the nasty feminists actually think by someone who simply doesn't grasp that feminism is not about demonising men. It is about centering women.

And yes when women come on here to ask about their relationships I will take it at face value and believe them. I may even tell them to leave if I think it might help them. Because although for the OP these boards are just somewhere for an attempt to be goady or have a lark, or try to trip women up, plenty of Mumsnetters understand how the support to be found here can be a literal lifeline for women experiencing abuse.