Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be a true feminism, I need to address my own misandry?

534 replies

FerrisWheelTrain · 23/03/2021 16:10

For example - are terms like LTB sexist?

OP posts:
Pumperthepumper · 26/03/2021 07:35

[quote FerrisWheelTrain]@Pumperthepumper but I’ve learnt that misandry doesn’t exist - and that hate crimes are never committed against men. So I don’t need to question it anymore - or be concerned about it.[/quote]
Who said hate crimes are never committed against men?

FerrisWheelTrain · 26/03/2021 07:39

@Pumperthepumper I’ve been told many times on the thread that misandry isn’t a word? Is it? Or isn’t it? Are hate crimes committed against men? Should I be using a different word?

OP posts:
Pumperthepumper · 26/03/2021 07:41

[quote FerrisWheelTrain]@Pumperthepumper I’ve been told many times on the thread that misandry isn’t a word? Is it? Or isn’t it? Are hate crimes committed against men? Should I be using a different word?[/quote]
That’s not what i asked you - misandry isn’t a word. Nobody said hate crimes are committed against men, unless you can quote wheee they did?

Which men, guilty of what?

Pumperthepumper · 26/03/2021 07:42

*aren’t

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 26/03/2021 07:50

These lazy generalisations are getting boring now. Nobody has said what you have posted. People have given sensible and nuanced responses and yet you have studiously ignored them.

If someone is posting about a potentially abusive situation are you seriously suggesting that we undertake a forensic investigation into their postings. If a friend told you they had been raped would you do the same?

FerrisWheelTrain · 26/03/2021 07:51

@Pumperthepumper
Ok so misandry isn’t a word. Correct? Hate crimes ARE committed against men? Correct?
In answer to your question ALL men ALL crimes. My inclination is NOT to agree with that statement, but am I wrong?

OP posts:
Pumperthepumper · 26/03/2021 07:52

[quote FerrisWheelTrain]@Pumperthepumper
Ok so misandry isn’t a word. Correct? Hate crimes ARE committed against men? Correct?
In answer to your question ALL men ALL crimes. My inclination is NOT to agree with that statement, but am I wrong?[/quote]
Hate crimes are committed against men I’m sure.

You think people think All Men are guilty of ALL crimes, and can’t see how ridiculous that statement is?

You think ALL MEN are innocent of ALL crimes?

Pumperthepumper · 26/03/2021 07:53

[quote FerrisWheelTrain]@Pumperthepumper
Ok so misandry isn’t a word. Correct? Hate crimes ARE committed against men? Correct?
In answer to your question ALL men ALL crimes. My inclination is NOT to agree with that statement, but am I wrong?[/quote]
And misandry isn’t a word.

FerrisWheelTrain · 26/03/2021 08:10

@Pumperthepumper ok. So if misandry isn’t a word, but hate crimes are committed against men - should it be included in the Parliamentary Bill? If so how should it be described? If not - why shouldn’t it be included and is that fair?

OP posts:
northstars · 26/03/2021 08:12

What a weird thread. OP, if you are indeed a woman, you seem to have some serious internalised misogyny. Not one person on this thread has said “all men are guilty of all crimes”, yet you keep banging on about this. What exactly do you want from this? Confused

FerrisWheelTrain · 26/03/2021 08:14

Which if these statements is correct - both or neither. All men are innocent until proven guilty - or all men are guilty until proven innocent? Or - my previous belief was people (men/women) are innocent until proven guilty. As my belief is wrong - can you explain to me why it is wrong?

OP posts:
FerrisWheelTrain · 26/03/2021 08:17

@northstars I agree, I concerned that I have serious internalised misogyny. So id value your thoughts.

OP posts:
Stompythedinosaur · 26/03/2021 08:20

If your version of feminism is focused on men, then I'm not sure it's feminism.

It isn't misandry to believe that for women to have more, men sometimes have to have less.

Pumperthepumper · 26/03/2021 08:25

[quote FerrisWheelTrain]@Pumperthepumper ok. So if misandry isn’t a word, but hate crimes are committed against men - should it be included in the Parliamentary Bill? If so how should it be described? If not - why shouldn’t it be included and is that fair?[/quote]
Ah, I see why you’re confused.

Hate crimes do happen to men, but not because of their sex. It’s usually because of race or religion.

The reason we need a word for Women-Hating (misogyny) is because women are being killed at the rate of two per week in the UK (by men) and sexually assaulted regularly enough that we have various different movements to tackle it. That’s where feminism comes in.

So if you’re worried that men are getting a raw deal because they don’t have a word for the vanishingly rare occasions that men are attacked solely for being male, I guess you’ve got two choices:

  1. look at your own misogyny and try to bring down the regular attacks on women so we no longer need that word

Or

  1. start killing men at the rate of two per week.

I can’t see a circumstance where not believing women who say they’ve been abused helps anyone.

Hufflepuffsunite · 26/03/2021 08:29

Feminism centres women. It looks to address issues where women are disproportionately affected (e.g. domestic violence with 2 women dying every week in the uk). What you are doing is centring men. That's also absolutely fine to do and there are many issues adversely affecting men and boys which should be addressed. However, that is not feminism and therefore when you try to frame it as such, people will correct you. Finally, pointing out that men are, for example, far more likely to commit violent crimes is not oppression. It is a fact. Getting on your high horse about all the men who aren't dangerous isn't really helpful in that discussion. There are mothers who kill their children. When I participate in discussions about issues surrounding that, I don't sit there saying "not ALL mothers kill their children! I've never killed MY children! In fact I don't know ANY mothers who've done that!" Because that would be unhelpful and pointless when considering factors that contribute to these incidents and thinking about ways to better safeguard children.

FerrisWheelTrain · 26/03/2021 08:47

@Hufflepuffsunite yes - I completely agree that hate crime is disproportionate - and the Parliamentary Bill should recognise this and resource appropriately. However - the bill uses the word ‘misandry’ - and I’m told here that it’s not a word. In fact I’m being crucified for suggesting it might even be a word. I’m being accused of misogyny. And I’m a woman. This is deeply concerning me.

OP posts:
FerrisWheelTrain · 26/03/2021 08:49

I’m also being crucified for suggesting ‘all people are innocent until proven guilty’ - or that I need to be gender specific with this statement.

OP posts:
FerrisWheelTrain · 26/03/2021 08:49

I’m also being crucified for suggesting the term ‘bastard’ is offensive.

OP posts:
Pumperthepumper · 26/03/2021 08:52

@FerrisWheelTrain

I’m also being crucified for suggesting ‘all people are innocent until proven guilty’ - or that I need to be gender specific with this statement.
That’s, again, not what you said. You said we shouldn’t believe women who come on here asking for advice until we hear the other side of the story.
FerrisWheelTrain · 26/03/2021 09:02

@Pumperthepumper no!! I said we should be mindful of the fact that ‘all people are innocent until proven guilty’. We can believe what we want. I believe the Irish rugby players were guilty - BUT they are entitled to a defence.

OP posts:
FerrisWheelTrain · 26/03/2021 09:05

Ok my final statement on this - I’m fully in support of a pendulum swinging. My concern is that it ‘might’ swing too far. This could be counter productive and impact negatively what we are trying to achieve. That’s it! Bye all and thanks for your views!

OP posts:
northstars · 26/03/2021 09:08

@FerrisWheelTrain

Which if these statements is correct - both or neither. All men are innocent until proven guilty - or all men are guilty until proven innocent? Or - my previous belief was people (men/women) are innocent until proven guilty. As my belief is wrong - can you explain to me why it is wrong?
This is not a court of law and it’s not for me (or you) to decide whether someone is innocent or guilty. Women who post here for support with abusive relationships deserve to be listened to; I have no reason to automatically assume that a victim of abuse is lying, and it’s really sad that you would think that.
Pumperthepumper · 26/03/2021 09:17

[quote FerrisWheelTrain]@Pumperthepumper no!! I said we should be mindful of the fact that ‘all people are innocent until proven guilty’. We can believe what we want. I believe the Irish rugby players were guilty - BUT they are entitled to a defence.[/quote]
Also bolllocks - you linked to an article about false accusations and said we should hear the abusers side first before some stranger on the internet calls him a bastard. You centred the abusers feelings, not the victim.

Pumperthepumper · 26/03/2021 09:17

@FerrisWheelTrain

Ok my final statement on this - I’m fully in support of a pendulum swinging. My concern is that it ‘might’ swing too far. This could be counter productive and impact negatively what we are trying to achieve. That’s it! Bye all and thanks for your views!
You also don’t believe this, or you would be able to argue it without flouncing and changing the subject.
thepeopleversuswork · 26/03/2021 09:18

OP I've lurked throughout this thread: you've had a bit of a roasting on here and I understand why but just to try to explain kindly why people are finding your posts frustrating but in (hopefully) the most useful way:

What you seem to be doing is falling into the traditional response trap which misogynistic men actively cultivate, which is a false equivalence between misogyny and "misandry". (I'm not going to argue the toss about whether misandry exists -- let's assume it does.)

What feminism has sought to do, as Hufflepuffsunite says, is to centre women and focus on the numerous ways in which society is structured to benefit men against women. This is an article of faith for feminists (and a belief I share).

What a lot of men and female misogynists have tried to do in response to this is to posit the argument that men and women are already equal in society (which they are not) and therefore that any criticism of men because of the behaviour of men as a class is automatically sexist. Hence the arguments around misandry and the #notallmen culture etc.

This argument is very seductive: of course not every single man is a rapist or a domestic abuser. No one has argued that they are.

What this fails to acknowledge is that sexism is a structural problem, not an individual one (though there are individual sexists). Women are disadvantaged as a class by men as a class. They earn less, they do more domestic labour, they are subject to more arbitrary societal rules governing their sexual and romantic lives, they find it harder to advance at work due to workplace rules which benefit men, they are subject to arbitrary violence because of their sex. I could go on but you hopefully get the picture. None of these societal rules apply to men because they are men.

This doesn't mean that men don't experience the same kinds of discrimination in society, they do. But this discrimination is not happening because of their sex, it is happening because of other societal and individual factors.

What people are trying to get across to you is that you have no obligation to always consider men's needs and feelings out of a sense of (false) equivalence. Because there is no equivalence. It's perfectly legitimate to be considerate and thoughtful to men and not to be gratuitously unpleasant to them because they are men. But you don't owe them an obligation of considering their equality needs. Because society already does that perfectly well for them alreaady.

I hope that makes a bit more sense?