Nicola Sturgeon has done a number on the English left.

[derxa]

A white wash report. Misuse of public money. Shower of incompetents in SNP government. Rotten education. Using covid as a political tool.
I could weep for my country.
Yet people like James O'Brien continue to arse lick Nicola

@UnderHisAye

Well, Sturgeon might have absolutely nothing to do with it. That's the problem with this debate: people keep going on about Sturgeon as if she is the Prime Minister of an independent Scotland.

There would be a general election called, in which I may or may note vote SNP.

But yes, of course we'd have to set up our own institutions. But there would be a deal done with rUK where we'd have to divide assets so we'd have a wee bit of pocket money to get started. I don't earn a fortune but I'd be glad to put my taxes into building a new nation.

We’ve given Scotland pocket money, a billion pounds worth. Why should Scotland walk away with assets when they’re in debt to England already? They would have no bargaining power.

@MinnieMous3

Pumper the only person embarrassing themselves is you - with your obvious fact dodging and victim complex, determined to take offence at everything. It’s sad actually.

‘Victim complex’ sure.

As for Sturgeon not being PM, well I think we know she would initially at least, because I can’t think of any other obvious candidate. And given she hasn’t been able to manage your finances with hand holding, I personally wouldn’t trust her to negotiate such a separation and budget for an army, navy, Air Force, border police, etc. I mean you’d have to be mad wouldn’t you.

Well the pathetic island post is still up, so I can only assume we are more hardened in the rough and tumble of debate

I don't remember the details about dividing up assets very well, but I wrote my dissertation on this at uni 17 years ago. Christ I'm old.

Assets and liabilities would have to be divided up; there are only a few examples from history to go on so it would be very new territory really.

There are geographical assets like property and natural resources which go to the state they're situated in. There are questions about the public sector, pensions, the military etc? Also Scotland would have a substantial burden of debt to take on.

It's all up for debate and I don't pretend otherwise, or that anyone has all the answers. They don't. Voting for independence is simply step one.

@MinnieMous3 I've given up on understanding what is worthy of deletion and what isn't, since I called someone a 'keyboard warrior' and got deleted, and on the same thread a poster called another poster a cunt, and that stood!

@UnderHisAye those last 3 lines have a touch of the Brexit about them 😬

So? Would you feel better if someone lied to you and said they already knew how it would all pan out?

@UnderHisAye

*@MinnieMous3* I've given up on understanding what is worthy of deletion and what isn't, since I called someone a 'keyboard warrior' and got deleted, and on the same thread a poster called another poster a cunt, and that stood!

Haha! I’ve been called all sorts of names on here. I don’t report as I’m pretty thick skinned and realise that you can’t put your opinion out for debate by strangers and not get some pretty extreme responses sometimes. Also I think replying with pure insults shows one has already lost the argument, really.

@UnderHisAye

So? Would you feel better if someone lied to you and said they already knew how it would all pan out?

No I would feel better had Brexit not happened at all! As I’m sure many people would. Brexit was a display of voting strength by those aged 50-70. Most of us younger people really don’t want it. I think we had a very good deal from the EU 🤷🏼‍♀️ Certainly worth more than some meaningless notion of ‘independence’. I’m not an English nationalist at all, ideally I would like the union to stay together, government/voting reform, and to rejoin the EU.

But you're falsely conflating Brexit and Scottish independence; they have completely different motivations and are not alike at all.

I'd prefer an independent Scotland in Europe. I'd also like to think the UK will swing back and seek to re-enter Europe as time goes by. Parties will (hopefully) swing back to the left and I might feel more at home again in the UK, then an independent Scotland wouldn't feel so vital.

Who knows? I don't mind admitting that loads of this stuff is all up in the air! These threads hit a problem because nobody can admit to a chink in their armour.

There are a lot of similarities - mainly that the motivator is ‘independence’ per se, rather than a tangible benefit, and basically zero idea as to how it would work. Throw in the fact we share a border and currency and it gets a lot messier. Scotland will have very little bargaining power in creating a deal with England - most imports from mainland Europe to Scotland come through England, and I expect we would want to take advantage of that. I can’t imagine too many Scottish military personal want independence (correct me if I’m wrong), so dividing up the military against their will would be a challenge.

There’s also the not-too-small issue that it wouldn’t be a case of jumping out of bed with England and straight in with the EU. The EU is out to protect its own interests first and foremost, and I doubt it would take on a relatively new and unstable country if it looked like it would need financial propping up. Scotland would have a very tough first 10 years or so until it was established in some way before applying, and even then, there would be no guarantee they would take you.

Personally I think it would be best for the UK to stay together and campaign to rejoin the EU. In 20 years or so most of the Brexit/Conservative voters may no longer be here, and there is a better chance of a Labour government who are in favour of devolution within the UK. I think this is a much more sustainable plan.

Labour will never gain even a tiny foothold in Scotland again.
As for NS doing a number on them - no need, they did a great job of that themselves with their 'better together' betrayal.
How now, Brown Vow? It will never be forgotten!

@YNK

Labour will never gain even a tiny foothold in Scotland again. As for NS doing a number on them - no need, they did a great job of that themselves with their 'better together' betrayal. How now, Brown Vow? It will never be forgotten!

NS is the equivalent of Farage. Someone who promises the Earth yet never gives detail on how it can be delivered. You can’t see it yet, but the time will come when you will.

@YNK

Labour will never gain even a tiny foothold in Scotland again. As for NS doing a number on them - no need, they did a great job of that themselves with their 'better together' betrayal. How now, Brown Vow? It will never be forgotten!

I agree with this, even though it’s the worst outcome for what I want. Better Together was a massively flawed campaign because what it actually meant was ‘No Worse Off Together’ - it wasn’t a celebration of the union, it was a fear of losing it. And yes, the Brown Vow. Absolutely nobody got what they wanted.

It’s not phrased nicely but it’s true isn’t it? If England asked Scotland to bail it out a billion pounds, I can only imagine the comments on here. They would be a lot, lot worse.

Scotland has never asked England to bail it out. It may have asked the United Kingdom government for financial support but as an "equal" member if the United Kingdom it shouldn't need to ask, it should be delivered if required.

Far to many people, including many on this thread and in the UK government, seem to think that the United Kingdom and England are one and the same. They are not, the United Kindom is supposed to be an equal political union between, England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Yet for the past God knows how long the English have treated it as their own personal piggy bank and are only getting more and more possessive over it's contents.

The only two viable solutions going forward imo are the break up of the union (my personal choice) or for England to establish their own devolved parliament, like the rest of us, and for the UK government to get back to looking after all 4 countries interests and not just one.

It’s not phrased nicely but it’s true isn’t it? If England asked Scotland to bail it out a billion pounds, I can only imagine the comments on here. They would be a lot, lot worse

That would be an impossibility because England does not have a separate “government” The government is the UK and they do send money to Scotland

And where do you think Scotland is?

Wow @MinnieMous3 thanks for educating us with your very patronising comment.

This thread just hardens my resolve. 🙏🏻

@Bythemillpond

It’s not phrased nicely but it’s true isn’t it? If England asked Scotland to bail it out a billion pounds, I can only imagine the comments on here. They would be a lot, lot worse

That would be an impossibility because England does not have a separate “government” The government is the UK and they do send money to Scotland

Of course, but surely it’s not too much of a jump for your brain to consider a reverse scenario and how well that would go down with the Scottish population?

Like a sack of shit I expect.

Yet if we bring it up, we’re belittling Scotland and everyone steadfastly dodges commenting on it.

@forfucksakenett

Wow *@MinnieMous3* thanks for educating us with your very patronising comment.

This thread just hardens my resolve. 🙏🏻

If it hardens your resolve that you are utterly unable to refute anything I have written on this thread, then frankly you deserve ‘independence’.

Sorry most of your posts are goady drivel and I couldn't focus fully on them. What exactly do you want me to refute?

I'll be clear. I see no reason economic or otherwise as to why independence wouldn't work.

@Williamthebruce

It’s not phrased nicely but it’s true isn’t it? If England asked Scotland to bail it out a billion pounds, I can only imagine the comments on here. They would be a lot, lot worse.

Scotland has never asked England to bail it out. It may have asked the United Kingdom government for financial support but as an "equal" member if the United Kingdom it shouldn't need to ask, it should be delivered if required.

Far to many people, including many on this thread and in the UK government, seem to think that the United Kingdom and England are one and the same. They are not, the United Kindom is supposed to be an equal political union between, England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Yet for the past God knows how long the English have treated it as their own personal piggy bank and are only getting more and more possessive over it's contents.

The only two viable solutions going forward imo are the break up of the union (my personal choice) or for England to establish their own devolved parliament, like the rest of us, and for the UK government to get back to looking after all 4 countries interests and not just one.

Huh?! Holyrood gets its own budget for internal affairs (and then some) so why on Earth should they get to take another billion out of the pot? If more was spent per head on English citizens than on Scottish ones, yet England still saw fit to dip into the communal funds to the tune of a billion pounds simply because it didn’t want to tax its citizens properly, you would all be foaming at the mouth, ranting about English superiority and blatant bias etc.

Honestly the double standards on here is really quite breathtaking.

Frankly I can’t ever see a time when Scotland won’t be begging the rest of the UK for cash, yet still beating its chest about being a proud nation capable of independence.

It’s a joke!

@forfucksakenett

Sorry most of your posts are goady drivel and I couldn't focus fully on them. What exactly do you want me to refute?

I'll be clear. I see no reason economic or otherwise as to why independence wouldn't work.

Goady 😂 the word a person uses when they can’t refute your point and want to shut it down...

Give me a point and I'll refute it if I can.

Why would an independent Scotland be going to England for money? What a bizarre superiority complex you have.