To be crying over the Caroline Flack programme?

[Franch2892]

I don't really cry at TV or movies usually but this really hit me.
I finished watching the programme feeling somewhat 'depressed'.
I felt it was very relatable.
I've had times of depression and horrible thoughts and seeing her mum and friends talk about her made me realise how loved most people don't even realise they are.

It just hit me after the documentary how quickly people can be taken away and how we just never see them again.

I don't know, it's just made me really really sad

@RightYesButNo

TW: In-depth discussion of suicidal thoughts

Vv sad, a shame she didn't hold on. Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

I know this isn’t meant to be hurtful, but it’s become a bit of a “thing” to say, and it’s just often not true. Perhaps it is in cases where people were perfectly happy, experienced one single incident, and then killed themselves. But even with something like bullying, it’s often a prolonged campaign against the person, until they are experiencing depression and then contemplate suicide for some time before they do it. And then there are all the people who suffer from clinical depression and end up eventually committing suicide after struggling for years, maybe decades. It’s not a temporary problem; it’s a lifelong fight, every single day. Medications, therapists, various methods of distraction and grounding and trying to stay healthy. It can be an incredible slog, and beyond exhausting. Staying alive can be very, very difficult. So. Difficult.

It's obviously a horrendous solution, but it's a solution.

I get the point you’re attempting to make, but unfortunately, it’s a solution to a single problem. Suicidal thoughts often come when you’re so overwhelmed with problems that you can’t see the way out and suicide only solves one problem: it makes your pain stop. It leaves every other problem unsolved, left for loved ones, your parents or children or best friends, or strangers or government workers or volunteers. Shite tons of coping skills and worrying about the constellation of other problems (not wanting to hurt your parents or children or...) can maybe be enough to stop you 999 times out of 1000, perhaps.... it’s that 1000th suicidal thought that slips through, and you’re laid bare. I didn’t see the program, I admit, but maybe she just couldn’t fight it the thousandth time. I admit that, even fighting as hard as I can, I worry sometimes I won’t be able to do it the thousand times I need to.

Great post. I really don’t think people understand mental illness who haven’t experienced it.

I’ve suffered from suicidal thoughts for years thanks to childhood abuse neglect and ptsd. The effects of these things are intertwined with me. I don’t know anyone who has just had one thing go wrong and then take their own life, there might be one think that literally was the last straw but it’s normally underpinned by years of struggle.

It is sometimes a fight for your life to not take it, it’s sitting in the deepest darkest hole full of monsters then seeing a bright warm, peaceful light where you can feel safe -that’s what suicide looks like-peace. You have to fight yourself to remember this isn’t true, it’s a creation of your mind, it’s being as scared as you can imagine. It’s seeing therapist after therapist, reading more books than the bodleium houses, hiding the internal screaming as you put a plaster on your child’s knee.

But in moments of clarity you know that you will leave devastation behind. For many suicide is actually an ever tempting solution to a permanent problem.

You create a narrative, an automatic script you can invoke to provide a safe way out of these thoughts.

[quote PugInTheHouse]@Chooseausernamenow you have deliberately twisted what I said, I have never said she should be charged or prosecuted, I just said it should be relevant to the specific assault. You have literally just confirmed what I said in different words in your post so I don't understand why you are picking my post to bits. I AGREE that she should be prosecuted if she it him, I have nowhere said differently. My grievance is with the press (and some people on here) making her out to be something she's not.

The severity of the injuries would have come into play with the charges and any subsequent punishment if it had gone that far, the fact is that the press did not act in the same way about it, the headlines were not the truth at all.[/quote]
I didn’t twist anything. This is what you said

“The fact that is was a little cut to his head does make a difference,
she hadn't repeatedly battered him, my understanding is that she threw something in temper that hit him, if she hadn't hit him round the head with a hammer then totally different. I am not saying that it's ok but it isn't the same as a vicious beating. That doesn't mean it doesn't warrant some sort of charge but I think it is unfair to say that any assault is assault, there are clearly differing levels and it would be hugely concerning if the severity didn't come into play at all.”

I completely agree that she was treated badly by the press.

It's really sad. Also, it hasn't got much attention but I think that drug use really contributes to this. There's such a cocaine culture in a lot of places at the moment, especially with celebrities and add that to someone who already has an underlying mental health issue and it's a toxic combination and can cause really deep lows.

@Captnip500 I would like to think I felt the same if the roles were reversed. I have seen people at the point of being sectioned and it rings so true to the state she clearly was in.

This all resonates so much personally have a child with diagnosed issues and impulse control is a big part of his problem. He is only young right now but there is a very high % of adults in prison with his condition. It is so important to ensure he gets the right help to avoid him ending up in trouble but it worries me that so many people would write him off if in the heat of the moment he threw something that (may have not been aimed at someone?) caused someone a (allegedly) minor injury. I am not saying he shouldn't be charged but that I hope he would get the help he needed as opposed to writing him off as a violent thug.

@Chooseausernamenow I actually think I am agreeing with you, I have clearly worded it badly.

@Chooseausernamenow also the fact that I typed 'I have never said she should be charged', and actually meant 'shouldn't' doesn't help me state my point properly.

You're not unreasonable, it was a very moving programme and we all saw a different side to Caroline Flack. I never cared for her but see her differently now. She was a poor soul, extremely vulnerable. I loved the way everyone spoke about her.

I felt so sad after watching that last night..

Have to say i really felt she didnt get the help she needed, as an example her best friend said she 'took her eye off the ball' and didnt contact her at a crucial time for 3 days, because Caroline had said she was ok. If that was my best mate who'd previously tried to commit suicide, and had a history of self harm, i'd be ringing twice a day to check, if not camping on their bloody doorstep!

Not one person said they'd tried to get her to seek help, it came across as a 'just a matter of time' inevitable result..

Don't forget the blood on the bed was hers not his, what an awful desperately sad situation.

@PugInTheHouse

FFSAllthegoodones - you are 100% right IMO, it is a good thing the police can override what the victims want regarding prosecution.

MH is not a reason to not be charged for a crime, however it does and should be a factor in what punishment is chosen. Putting someone in prison and vilifying them publicly will not achieve anything, given them the help they require among other things IMO is the right thing to do. Obviously there are some situations where a custodial sentence is the only option regardless of MH problems but I genuinely don't believe that would or should have been the case here.

Mental health CAN be a factor in the decision whether or not to charge someone with a crime, if for instance, the police think it’s unlikely that the perpetrator is going to be found responsible for their actions due to their mental health condition. I am Not saying that CF wasn’t responsible for her actions at the time because you would probably need to be qualified mental health professional to make such a judgement and know a lot more about what actually happened than me sitting her having watched a documentary!

But the police and CPS can do decide not to prosecute for crimes all of the time. Because it’s not in the public interest, because there isn’t enough evidence etc etc. In my option they actually seem to do this too often! But from the information in the documentary alone, I think she needed medical attention that night not public humiliation.

@Tinydinosaur

I think it's a disgrace and insult to all men and women who have been killed or killed themselves as a result of domestic violence.

She had not been found guilty of a crime! Just charged.

[quote PugInTheHouse]@Captnip500 I would like to think I felt the same if the roles were reversed. I have seen people at the point of being sectioned and it rings so true to the state she clearly was in.

This all resonates so much personally have a child with diagnosed issues and impulse control is a big part of his problem. He is only young right now but there is a very high % of adults in prison with his condition. It is so important to ensure he gets the right help to avoid him ending up in trouble but it worries me that so many people would write him off if in the heat of the moment he threw something that (may have not been aimed at someone?) caused someone a (allegedly) minor injury. I am not saying he shouldn't be charged but that I hope he would get the help he needed as opposed to writing him off as a violent thug.[/quote]
@PugInTheHouse I am really sorry to hear about the struggles your child has. That just be difficult.

I think part of the problem withCF was that she had never received the help she needed and was undiagnosed. If the police had been aware that she had a condition and a history of mental health problems, it may have been a different story. I should think with your child having that knowledge could make a big difference. Thankfully awareness of MH has moved on since CF was younger.

[quote PugInTheHouse]@Captnip500 I would like to think I felt the same if the roles were reversed. I have seen people at the point of being sectioned and it rings so true to the state she clearly was in.

This all resonates so much personally have a child with diagnosed issues and impulse control is a big part of his problem. He is only young right now but there is a very high % of adults in prison with his condition. It is so important to ensure he gets the right help to avoid him ending up in trouble but it worries me that so many people would write him off if in the heat of the moment he threw something that (may have not been aimed at someone?) caused someone a (allegedly) minor injury. I am not saying he shouldn't be charged but that I hope he would get the help he needed as opposed to writing him off as a violent thug.[/quote]
He was asleep when she hit him with a lamp, by her own testimony.Can you imagine what a terrifying way to wake up? Her ex also mentioned abuse, then deleted with an image of his NDA.

I'd suspect a vast majority of abusers will have personality disorders, mental health issues and/or highly traumatic upbringings. My abuser had these too.We cannot excuse abuse based on any of the above.

It's tremendously sad she died, she clearly suffered a lot and if I were in her family.and friends' place I'd want to celebrate her life and good qualities too. But can you imagine a man dying under the shade of violent abuse and the press and public having soft-focus programmes and making #bekind a hashtag? It's dangerous..

Thank you @Captnip500 it is a worry as he is mostly so mild natured but occasionally we see a different side, he has only very rarely been violent in nature and always to property not people but hopefully like you say the fact he is diagnosed will mean it will never become an issue. His medication helps but I truly think his condition is extremely underestimated in severity and also generally what it really means to have it.

@Jellykat

I felt so sad after watching that last night..

Have to say i really felt she didnt get the help she needed, as an example her best friend said she 'took her eye off the ball' and didnt contact her at a crucial time for 3 days, because Caroline had said she was ok. If that was my best mate who'd previously tried to commit suicide, and had a history of self harm, i'd be ringing twice a day to check, if not camping on their bloody doorstep!

Not one person said they'd tried to get her to seek help, it came across as a 'just a matter of time' inevitable result..

Don't forget the blood on the bed was hers not his, what an awful desperately sad situation.

Way to judge her friend who'd probably supported her non-stop for years feel guilty!

The loved ones of suicidal people do not have endless resources. Some people will end their own lives no matter what. I believe the suicide rate remains more or less constant for decades, which is proof of this.

I don't believe for one second that CF didn't have support in abundance.

I’ve only read the first page and I am absolutely appalled.

The next time I hear about a man beating his female partner about the head I’ll think of this thread and remember that man had probably struggled all his life, poor self esteem, depression etc.
His plight so very relatable.

How utterly sickening.
She was a violent domestic abuser who killed her self when it all came out.
Nothing more.

She clearly had mental health issues, so do a lot of the men that abuse women, but no compassion there.
There is no excuse and I’m disgusted at how her violent behaviour has been excused on account of her being a pretty woman.

It's tremendously sad she died, she clearly suffered a lot and if I were in her family.and friends' place I'd want to celebrate her life and good qualities too. But can you imagine a man dying under the shade of violent abuse and the press and public having soft-focus programmes and making #bekind a hashtag? It's dangerous..

Like Michael Jackson? Jimmy Saville?

@OverTheRubicon "He was asleep when she hit him with a lamp, by her owntestimony.Canyou imagine what a terrifying way to wake up?"

Is this true?

@Captnip500

I agree *@raskolnikova* that there IS a place for charges to be made in domestic abuse cases without the victims support, for the reasons you have outline.

But I just don’t think this was the case here. The victim, who was not seriously injured (although I realise that mental scars can be just as damaging) was not just unwilling to press charges but spoke out quite forcefully against the charges being brought. There was no evidence (as far as I know) of this being an ongoing domestic abuse situation and crucially the perpetrator was very unwell and vulnerable themselves.

I don’t mean to sound like I am coming down to hard on her side because it sounds like what she did that night was very wrong and must have been traumatic for her ex boyfriend. But I think a caution and some court mandated therapy to deal with her mental health issue would have been more appropriate. I think that’s probably what would have happened in most cases but because she was so high profile, I think they wanted to make an example of her, which was unfair.

I liked Caroline Flack on SCD and initially I had a lot of sympathy for her despite what she had done. It's just that my sympathy is getting eroded when I keep reading comments about how the police 'have something to answer for' in her death, that they shouldn't have been charging her because her victim didn't want them to, how her boyfriend 'only had a little cut', etc, etc.

The points you make here could be applied to plenty of DV situations. I'll admit to being a bit 'triggered' because a year before this incident I was the victim of DV. I forcefully refused to officially report the incident, even though objectively I know it was a crime which should have been reported.

So I can understand why the police/CPS would want to make an example of her, to try and show that they take DV seriously, they believe victims, etc. It doesn't mean they have to answer for a part in her death. 'Being made an example of' is surely a risk you run when you're a public figure and you commit a crime.

There are no reasonable excuses for violent behaviour, there may be reasons and where appropriate punishments should reflect this. It is not always appropriate though. It shouldn't matter if male or female.

We don't actually know the full circumstances here, it could have been one off with him (still bad i know) or a serial violent abuser putting her partners through he'll regularly. The courts should have been the only ones deciding that, not the press and certainly not us who dont really know the facts.

I don't know a whole lot about the CPS, but I would have thought they would need significant evidence to prosecute - would be interesting to know of anyone has insights on this.

So many posts on this thread are v uncomfortable...elsewhere on this site if a woman is hit, pushed, even threatened physically once, there are a chorus of posters telling her to call the police and leave. Not saying 'ooh it was just the once, I'm sure his MH problems are really bad right now'.

As I've said upthread I feel sorry for her loved ones and for anyone who has suicidal thoughts, I've been there, it's hard. But it's not an excuse for what she did to allegedly more than one partner

@PugInTheHouse

Sorry when I say them both being injured, I meant obviously her harming herself, not that he did it, I have just reread what I put and it doesn't read well.

The fact that is was a little cut to his head does make a difference,
she hadn't repeatedly battered him, my understanding is that she threw something in temper that hit him, if she hadn't hit him round the head with a hammer then totally different. I am not saying that it's ok but it isn't the same as a vicious beating. That doesn't mean it doesn't warrant some sort of charge but I think it is unfair to say that any assault is assault, there are clearly differing levels and it would be hugely concerning if the severity didn't come into play at all.

Of course there are different levels of assault, but 'minor' assault is assault too. If I assaulted someone but didn't leave a mark, or only a small mark, I would still expect to be charged, probably lose my job, etc.

My understanding is she hit him whilst he was sleeping, which makes it even worse!

@PugInTheHouse

There are no reasonable excuses for violent behaviour, there may be reasons and where appropriate punishments should reflect this. It is not always appropriate though. It shouldn't matter if male or female.

We don't actually know the full circumstances here, it could have been one off with him (still bad i know) or a serial violent abuser putting her partners through he'll regularly. The courts should have been the only ones deciding that, not the press and certainly not us who dont really know the facts.

Well in the case of my situation, where I hit my ex because he refused to let myself and my children out of the car when a argument was escalating, I can tell you that no, it wasn't my finest hour.

When my ex was taken to court later down the line for stalking and harassment and criminal damage to my property, I disclosed my behaviour because I knew it would be used against me.

Was I right to use physical force? No.

According to police though, it was proportional to the situation and entirely justified in the circumstances of him refusing to let us get out of the car.

Am I a violent abuser? No. Did I use force in a highly charged situation? Yes.

Should I be charged and sent to prison? Is it that black and white?

@raskolnikova I am sorry to hear that you have been the victim of DV. That must have been terribly traumatic. There are, of course, situations where the police should charge regardless of the victims sentiments at the time.

When I say the police have a lot to answer for, I don’t mean they are to blame for her death. It was a lot more complicated then that, for sure. I think that the police are not always great at handling situations that involve mental health and in this case their decision to charge may have been motivated more by her fame than making an example of her then was really appropriate.

I can see what you are saying about people on the public eye running the risk of being made an example of but I am of the opinion that people should be treated the same in the law regardless of fame, money, status etc. Some people in the public eye, simply aren’t robust enough to carry a burden like that and CF was a prime example of that.

Chicchiclana Tough.. i know what i've done for someone close to me in similar circumstances until they finally got help, and thats how i felt after watching the programme.

[quote PugInTheHouse]@OverTheRubicon "He was asleep when she hit him with a lamp, by her owntestimony.Canyou imagine what a terrifying way to wake up?"

Is this true?[/quote]
Just checked and to be fair that was not her own testimony, but the content of the original 999 call made by Lewis, also begging her to stop and saying she was going to kill him. When the police showed up she overturned a table and they needed to physically restrain her on the ground.