To be crying over the Caroline Flack programme?

[Franch2892]

I don't really cry at TV or movies usually but this really hit me.
I finished watching the programme feeling somewhat 'depressed'.
I felt it was very relatable.
I've had times of depression and horrible thoughts and seeing her mum and friends talk about her made me realise how loved most people don't even realise they are.

It just hit me after the documentary how quickly people can be taken away and how we just never see them again.

I don't know, it's just made me really really sad

@pabloescobarselasticband I am not disagreeing at all with you. All those things should be taken into account when prosecuting her and if she hit him or threw something at him then she may have been found guilty, my issue is that the press basically lied about a lot of it potentially. If she attacked previous partners then that would have been discussed in court and the sentence would have taken that into account, the point is we don't actually know what is true though. Surely the courts should be able to decide, not the press !

@CandyLeBonBon I haven't seen any that take much sympathy or empathy with those men, but willing to be corrected.

It's tragic for her family that she is not with them anymore, but this documentary just didn't sit right with me.

Just to be clear, I have never said if she did it she shouldn't be prosecuted. DV is never ok, but neither is how she was treated by the press.

The press vilifying people in this way ruins lives, lets face it, it has happened to people who have proven themselves innocent but it is too late by then, their lives have been ruined. Everyone deserves a fair trial regardless.

@QuinoaAvo

What is cancel culture?

Vv sad, a shame she didn't hold on. Suicide is a permanent solution to a temorary problem.

Not true for many like me who have a chronic health problem that has no treatment or cure.

[quote siyhack58342]@CandyLeBonBon I haven't seen any that take much sympathy or empathy with those men, but willing to be corrected.

It's tragic for her family that she is not with them anymore, but this documentary just didn't sit right with me.[/quote]
A lot of the most recent documentaries elicit cruise a conflicting response in viewers.

Life is not black and white. But let's not forget that documentaries are filmed, ultimately to earn money for film makers and production companies. What we view is very much delivered through the filter of the film maker's narrative.

It's meant to be subject. That's the point.

The CF documentary is meant to be a water cooler moment. It succeeded.

@Whenthesunshines

Fripp- I mean that the program made very much out of her MH issues and how troubled she was whilst barely mentioning her attacking her partner.

I don’t think you watched the same documentary as me.

All that you will find is that I have a different opinion on the documentary than you.

[quote pabloescobarselasticband]@Pumperthepumper she was in court for one persons accusation against her but it wasnt the only accusation that had been made against her! At least one previous partner said she was aggressive towards him and he even moved to Australia to escape the relationship.[/quote]
I have absolutely no idea about Caroline Flack, I’m not here to defend her.

I’m picking up on this incredibly damaging and false idea that a ‘double standard’ exists where women are treated like saints and men are always punished. It’s not true, and it’s never been true. And to use this particular example to make that point is incredibly crass.

Agreed @Pumperthepumper

TW: In-depth discussion of suicidal thoughts

Vv sad, a shame she didn't hold on. Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

I know this isn’t meant to be hurtful, but it’s become a bit of a “thing” to say, and it’s just often not true. Perhaps it is in cases where people were perfectly happy, experienced one single incident, and then killed themselves. But even with something like bullying, it’s often a prolonged campaign against the person, until they are experiencing depression and then contemplate suicide for some time before they do it. And then there are all the people who suffer from clinical depression and end up eventually committing suicide after struggling for years, maybe decades. It’s not a temporary problem; it’s a lifelong fight, every single day. Medications, therapists, various methods of distraction and grounding and trying to stay healthy. It can be an incredible slog, and beyond exhausting. Staying alive can be very, very difficult. So. Difficult.

It's obviously a horrendous solution, but it's a solution.

I get the point you’re attempting to make, but unfortunately, it’s a solution to a single problem. Suicidal thoughts often come when you’re so overwhelmed with problems that you can’t see the way out and suicide only solves one problem: it makes your pain stop. It leaves every other problem unsolved, left for loved ones, your parents or children or best friends, or strangers or government workers or volunteers. Shite tons of coping skills and worrying about the constellation of other problems (not wanting to hurt your parents or children or...) can maybe be enough to stop you 999 times out of 1000, perhaps.... it’s that 1000th suicidal thought that slips through, and you’re laid bare. I didn’t see the program, I admit, but maybe she just couldn’t fight it the thousandth time. I admit that, even fighting as hard as I can, I worry sometimes I won’t be able to do it the thousand times I need to.

I agree with posters saying she should have been tried in court not by the media, however maybe thats what she couldn't face. The prospect of it all being laid bare for public consumption may have been to much for her to cope with. My point is that this documentary did skirt over the allegations of DV and painted her as some poor fragile human being, if a man had committed suicide with these allegations hanging over his head I highly doubt that a documentary would even be considered and if it was no one would be falling over themselves to portray him as a fragile victim.

"I am not sure what the purpose of charging her with assault when the victim was a dead against it and the perpetrator was clearly going through a mental health crisis themselves at the time was. Other then to make an example of her in the news."

In domestic violence cases its extremely common for the victim to be deas set against pressing charges, often because they are coerced or threatened by the perpetrator (not saying that's what happened here). If someone has physically abused someone they do deserve to be prosecuted for it, mental health issues or not. Mental health issues while hard on everyone involved are still not an excuse for violence. And I believe that the law was changed so that the police can prosecute without the approval or evidence from the victim, precisely because so many victims are too beaten down or scared to be seen to co operate with the police (again not saying that happened here).

I think a lot of the sentiment around this is because she was a woman accused of hurting a man. Would everyone say the same 'oh poor him, he didn't mean it, he was depressed, and she doesn't even want to press charges so the police should just drop it' if the roles were reversed?

Having BPD (seems very likely) isn't an excuse but it does explain things.
She was untreated for her illness, she was drunk and she just found out he was cheating on her.

Even the most emotionally stable would struggle with finding proof of cheating, let alone someone with a mental health illness that is known for explosive emotions, complete overreactions and impulsivity.
To you or me it might not be the end of the world if a boyfriend of a few months was cheating, but to her it will have been and in that moment, she will have felt complete agonising despair and she acted out, like someone with BPD often does. She won't have had the tools to do what a normal person would do, take a moment, breathe and then somewhat more calmly, confront him.
Again, it's not an excuse but it's an explanation of why she did what she did.

If she was any normal woman, they wouldn't have taken it that far. Not when the cut was so "small" and not when the victim didn't want to proceed.
She 100% should not have thrown things at him or whatever happened. It's not more okay because she's a woman. But she was ill and she needed help, instead all she got was hate and was being made an example out of.

I do feel sympathy for Lewis, but honestly, I cried for Caroline. I can think that she did something very bad but still be sad for the woman who so clearly needed help from a young age but didn't get it and died as a result.

It’s interesting though how people decide to react.

CF has been made into a national treasure even though she was accused of domestic abuse and was clearly no saint. Fact is we don’t know the story. We don’t know for instance that she didn’t commit suicide to avoid being prosecuted for her crimes. Plenty of people do. But because the media were blamed she became a hero and the #beKind emerged from the ashes of her death.

But the truth is she was in the right place at the right time in terms of the sympathy vote.

There have been plenty of other suicides which haven’t garnered anywhere near that kind of attention, and plenty which have garnered no sympathy at all.

I wonder how the same posters on this thread would have reacted if this programme was about Meghan Markle if she had acted on her thoughts of suicide.

People are selective. They choose which cause to get behind. And CF just happened to be the cause of the month.

It’s sad that she killed herself, sad for her family, but nobody knows enough about her to be able to justify turning her into a martyr.

@pabloescobarselasticband

I agree with posters saying she should have been tried in court not by the media, however maybe thats what she couldn't face. The prospect of it all being laid bare for public consumption may have been to much for her to cope with. My point is that this documentary did skirt over the allegations of DV and painted her as some poor fragile human being, if a man had committed suicide with these allegations hanging over his head I highly doubt that a documentary would even be considered and if it was no one would be falling over themselves to portray him as a fragile victim.

They probably would if there was ever a case where the facts were exactly the same as this one. Which is very unlikely to happen.

The reason this particular case garnered attention is because CF was 1) female, first and foremost 2) well-liked 3) well known. She was a unusual when we think of perpetrator of domestic violence.

Whereas men like Arme Hammer (male, white) are so common, it barely even registers.

So when we talk about the double standards we should ask ourselves - why do the press go for one over the other?

Is she a 'national treasure'?

I don't think so.

I think it's very much the same people who think nothing of shaming celebrities on social media because they'll never meet them, suddenly get a mild attack of conscience when something like this happens and there'll be a flurry of #bekind memes which will slowly fizzle out until the next celebrity causes a ruckus.

It happened with Diana, it happened with Jade Goody and it happened with CF.

The public are just horribly fickle and have very short memories.

I watched it and it was very sad. Even if you hadn't heard of her or weren't a fan You would have to be made of stone not to feel for her grieving sister, mum and friends. Their loss is still recent and very raw.

After watching it I felt very uncomfortable. It seemed yet another example of media exploiting a very troubled young woman in the pursuit of ratings. I thought her friends and family were exploited too - they were clearly desperate to talk about her but to what end?

She was untreated for her illness

She seemed to have quite a bit of family support and friends, managers etc and I felt it was odd that she seemed to have had so little support for her mental health in the past e.g. with previous overdoses, etc

But then it does take someone to ask for and engage it it I suppose. Just thought it was a bit strange.

And let's face it, when talking about reversal of sexes, there's too many to choose from, aren't there?
It's not and nor has it ever been, a level playing field.

FFSAllthegoodones - you are 100% right IMO, it is a good thing the police can override what the victims want regarding prosecution.

MH is not a reason to not be charged for a crime, however it does and should be a factor in what punishment is chosen. Putting someone in prison and vilifying them publicly will not achieve anything, given them the help they require among other things IMO is the right thing to do. Obviously there are some situations where a custodial sentence is the only option regardless of MH problems but I genuinely don't believe that would or should have been the case here.

@CandyLeBonBon I haven't really seen any like that, but ok.

And am aware documentaries are obviously made for money and attention.

My first response to this thread was just about what I thought of it being on TV so I feel like we're getting further away from the point here re: why documentaries are made.

But I do think she was hounded by the press, but the public chose to click, chose to buy those papers, watched all those shows that were critical of her. The press is a problem but so are people who want to engage with that kind of content.

@Orangeblossom1975

She was untreated for her illness

She seemed to have quite a bit of family support and friends, managers etc and I felt it was odd that she seemed to have had so little support for her mental health in the past e.g. with previous overdoses, etc

But then it does take someone to ask for and engage it it I suppose. Just thought it was a bit strange.

I can assure you that in the fit of a crisis, engaging with anyone is the last thing you feel able to do.

Everyone is your enemy.

It makes me sad that people have so little understanding of what a mental health crisis looks like.

It's really not just feeling a bit upset/sad/agitated.

The lack of awareness is so damaging

[quote siyhack58342]@CandyLeBonBon I haven't really seen any like that, but ok.

And am aware documentaries are obviously made for money and attention.

My first response to this thread was just about what I thought of it being on TV so I feel like we're getting further away from the point here re: why documentaries are made.

But I do think she was hounded by the press, but the public chose to click, chose to buy those papers, watched all those shows that were critical of her. The press is a problem but so are people who want to engage with that kind of content.[/quote]
Agreed. Which is why I don't

I don't think I have ever seen her being described as a national treasure, I definitely don't feel the documentary made her out to be anything other than extremely troubled. Her friends and family clearly loved her, they were also very honest about her struggles.

The press did a complete u-turn when she committed suicide probably to make themselves look better about how they had treated her previously, Dan Wootten a prime example. That is them being manipulative. They do not have the right to print the words #bekind IMO.

@FFSAllTheGoodOnesArereadyTaken I don’t know if you have read my other post but as I said, I am well aware that it’s necessary for the police to be able to bring charges without the support of the victim for the reasons you and others have stated. I should imagine it’s often crucial in cases domestic violence cases.

I just don’t think this was the case here, mostly because of the mental state of the perpetrator in conjunction with the wishes of the victim. From what we saw on that documentary (which may well
Also be biased information) it seems CF could probably have done with being sectioned that day with the damage she had done to herself, and to her ex.

I do think the double standard argument is being overstated here. I know for one I would feel the same if the roles were reversed and I think many others would too.

@Orangeblossom1975

She was untreated for her illness

She seemed to have quite a bit of family support and friends, managers etc and I felt it was odd that she seemed to have had so little support for her mental health in the past e.g. with previous overdoses, etc

But then it does take someone to ask for and engage it it I suppose. Just thought it was a bit strange.

She was clearly struggling to come to terms with who she was and her struggles and will have minimised as much as she could with friends and family.

It's like her friend said "you would just think come on, it's not that bad, but to her it obviously was". They don't seem to have realised until the end just how badly ill she was.