To be crying over the Caroline Flack programme?

[Franch2892]

I don't really cry at TV or movies usually but this really hit me.
I finished watching the programme feeling somewhat 'depressed'.
I felt it was very relatable.
I've had times of depression and horrible thoughts and seeing her mum and friends talk about her made me realise how loved most people don't even realise they are.

It just hit me after the documentary how quickly people can be taken away and how we just never see them again.

I don't know, it's just made me really really sad

@NailsNeedDoing

I’m not pretending that they are the same, but I don’t think that a women who acts violently should be treated with more leniency than a man who acts violently.

I want equality in society, and that means that where a very similar crime is committed by both a man and a woman, the outcomes should be the same. We can never expect to be treated equally as women if at the same time we expect more leniency when it comes to the justice system just for being women.

The way the media portrays people according to their sex, or class, or race, or whatever is wrong, and often society’s responses to stories in the media is different depending on whether the person is male or female etc. But the media isn’t the justice system, and unless you are a famous person that is involved in the media, it’s pretty easy to ignore.

And yet, your repeated insistence on this thread is ‘if the roles were reversed’ and ‘if a man did this’ - when in fact, we don’t need to reverse the roles to discuss how famous men are treated vs famous women.

I disagree and think that sometimes, we do need to reverse the roles, because that’s what highlights the disparity. When it’s clear that men and women are being treated differently in a similar situation, it is a good thing to consider whether the response would be the same if the roles were reversed. We compare other things all the time, like how much more men get paid in similar positions to women, or how much more women have been affected by lockdown, and all it does is highlight the unfairness and inequality.

Men and women don’t need to be treated any differently by the justice system any more than any other individuals need to be treated differently according to the circumstances.

I’m not pretending that they are the same, but I don’t think that a women who acts violently should be treated with more leniency than a man who acts violently.

They’re not though - women are treated much more harshly. Much more. Please don’t make me list all those examples of forgiven, abusive men again, and I’m sure I don’t have to - I’m sure you’re capable of thinking up a few of your own.

I want equality in society, and that means that where a very similar crime is committed by both a man and a woman, the outcomes should be the same. We can never expect to be treated equally as women if at the same time we expect more leniency when it comes to the justice system just for being women.

‘Equality’ isn’t the same as fairness though. We can’t treat male and female violence exactly the same because they’re often very, very different. Absolutely nobody is being more lenient on women, women are very often made the scapegoat in this weird gender war where people want to pretend women are just as bad - and they’re not. We know that the reasons for the very small number of men killed by women per year are often very different to the reasons men kill with increasing regularity. We can’t treat them exactly the same, because they’re not exactly the same.

I disagree and think that sometimes, we do need to reverse the roles, because that’s what highlights the disparity. When it’s clear that men and women are being treated differently in a similar situation, it is a good thing to consider whether the response would be the same if the roles were reversed. We compare other things all the time, like how much more men get paid in similar positions to women, or how much more women have been affected by lockdown, and all it does is highlight the unfairness and inequality.

But reversing the roles doesn’t work for DV because we know women are treated much worse than men when they’re accused. Because people want to pretend women are just as bad, and they’re not.

I wonder how much the culture for drug taking plays in the current mental health crisis. After all, drugs are available from every street corner.

[quote May17th]@Doingitaloneandproud get off your high horse.[/quote]
Ahh you're an idiot. I've been a victim of domestic violence you twat. And I've a male friend who also has from his female partner. Both should have been charged. You are an idiot if you think people who commit violence shouldn't be

I totally agree with the misogyny
It was painful to watch

But ultimately it was about watching a mother and a sister talk about their perceptions of someone with long term MH problems

If this incident hadn’t triggered her , something else would have , even if she hadn’t been beautiful and famous the MH issues were there regardless

I found it very moving as a woman of similar age who has MH issues

A man who did this would have been cleared of all charges, got a slap on the wrist at best, retained his job, furthered his career, whilst the victim was vilified in the media and lost their career, it happens all the time. Loads of famous actors have been charged with domestic violence or other forms of violence at some point, and they get no repercussions at all. Maybe for a little while people think that Brad Pitt or Nicolas Cage, Christian Bale or Johnny Depp are a bit off, but then the press move on, and they release a new movie, and the victim ends up releasing a statement saying that nothing happened. The world is run by these men, too.

And CF gets torn apart by MRAs because female domestic abusers are rare enough that at even the suggestion that a woman might be an abuser they make her the poster girl for their bullshit campaigns to make out as though a woman hurting her partner in a fit of rage on finding that he is cheating is the same as a pattern of sustained domestic abuse and violence?

They set out to destroy her to prove a point. Which just seems like more men bullying women to me (the norm then!) and women ending up dead. When Olly said she got it so much worse on X factor he wasn't sure why, it's called Patriarchy mate and it is alive and well, insidious and everywhere.

CF did something wrong, she should have been treated accordingly, but she was painted as a devil when she was just flawed. How many people have said they would kill their partner if they found them cheating? Well, men actually do kill their partners. Whereas women sometimes just lose their shit for a moment and maybe throw something. CF is not evidence that women are abusers too. She's evidence that sometimes people lose their shit when they find out they are being cheated on. Happens all the time.

She should not be judged by a different law, but our law has effectively decriminalised rape and domestic abuse. I've been watching men get away with that shit all my life. And yet the people who make the paper are always the violent women. The women who hurt their partner once, the women who lose their shit after years of sustained abuse and kill their partners, all of these women are a tiny minority compared to the men who abuse women every single day

This really is the reality of people you love committing suicide. It is not a surprise.

Not so. It might not be a surprise if the person who takes their life has EUPD/bpd as suicidal ideation and self harm are very much a part of the condition, but a lot of suicides, especially in men, come as a complete shock. My brother took his own life in December and nobody had an inkling. Not even his wife.

Excellent post @Potpourriandpennysweets

They’re not though - women are treated much more harshly. Much more. Please don’t make me list all those examples of forgiven, abusive men again, and I’m sure I don’t have to - I’m sure you’re capable of thinking up a few of your own.

Treated morse harshly by the media, I agree. But I don’t agree that they are treated more harshly than men by society, this thread proves that with the massive outpouring of sympathy that CF has received. If anything, the CF case proves how in some ways, women are already treated better. I don’t remember anyone questioning the mental health status of any of the men you mentioned earlier, and I completely disagree that any of them have been forgiven, as you put it.

‘Equality’ isn’t the same as fairness though. We can’t treat male and female violence exactly the same because they’re often very, very different.

They are different, but so are many many variations in cases of DV. They should all be treated according to their individual circumstances, and not be based on whether the aggressor was make or female.

But reversing the roles doesn’t work for DV because we know women are treated much worse than men when they’re accused. Because people want to pretend women are just as bad, and they’re not.

Treated worse by who? I’ve already said that I agree the media portrayal may be worse, and that is not ok, but you’re missing that the media isn’t everything. I don’t agree that women are treated worse by either society or the justice system, because they aren’t.

Women as a group aren’t worse than men, you’re right, but individual women can be as bad as or worse than individual men. There are more individual men that have violent tendencies than individual women, but as we can recognise that untreated mental illness is a significant factor when a woman becomes violent, why can’t we recognise that untreated mental illness is also a significant factor when men become violent? How does it take anything away from women to recognise that many violent men will also be suffering from untreated mental illness?

@Captnip500

I don’t know if you saw the programme, FrippEnos, but it really wasn’t like that at all. It was clear that she was a very vulnerable and troubled person, probably with an undiagnosed mental health condition. The incidents that happened with her ex boyfriend, while terrible, weren’t what the media made them out to be either.

I found it very sad myself and it highlighted that the media in this country is just brutal. The police also have a bit to answer for, I am
not sure what the purpose of charging her with assault when the victim was a dead against it and the perpetrator was clearly going through a mental health crisis themselves at the time was. Other then to make an example of her in the news.

I haven’t seen the programme yet and I haven’t decided if I will watch it.

I’m very torn because I don’t necessarily think the police were wrong to pursue charges, I wish they would do this more, but I do wonder why they chose to do so in this particular case. In any event, the media reaction was disproportionate and unforgivable. Innocent or guilty, she was literally hounded to her death.

We don’t really know what happened that night, the only evidence we have is a sensational leaked image, and the potential call to police. Charles Saatchi was actually photographed grabbing his wife by the throat, an oft-discussed potential red flag for future homicide, and was not hounded like this. He accepted only a caution for assault. Why the disparity?

I don’t think Caroline Flack was perfect, but I do feel strongly that women in general are treated far more harshly than men in the media. We see this again and again and it needs to stop.

@NailsNeedDoing

They’re not though - women are treated much more harshly. Much more. Please don’t make me list all those examples of forgiven, abusive men again, and I’m sure I don’t have to - I’m sure you’re capable of thinking up a few of your own.

Treated morse harshly by the media, I agree. But I don’t agree that they are treated more harshly than men by society, this thread proves that with the massive outpouring of sympathy that CF has received. If anything, the CF case proves how in some ways, women are already treated better. I don’t remember anyone questioning the mental health status of any of the men you mentioned earlier, and I completely disagree that any of them have been forgiven, as you put it.

‘Equality’ isn’t the same as fairness though. We can’t treat male and female violence exactly the same because they’re often very, very different.

They are different, but so are many many variations in cases of DV. They should all be treated according to their individual circumstances, and not be based on whether the aggressor was make or female.

But reversing the roles doesn’t work for DV because we know women are treated much worse than men when they’re accused. Because people want to pretend women are just as bad, and they’re not.

Treated worse by who? I’ve already said that I agree the media portrayal may be worse, and that is not ok, but you’re missing that the media isn’t everything. I don’t agree that women are treated worse by either society or the justice system, because they aren’t.

Women as a group aren’t worse than men, you’re right, but individual women can be as bad as or worse than individual men. There are more individual men that have violent tendencies than individual women, but as we can recognise that untreated mental illness is a significant factor when a woman becomes violent, why can’t we recognise that untreated mental illness is also a significant factor when men become violent? How does it take anything away from women to recognise that many violent men will also be suffering from untreated mental illness?

I don’t really know how much further we can go with this conversation if you think women are treated fairly in society.

Three women per week killed at the hands of men in the UK alone.

Three women per week killed at the hands of men in the UK alone

Right, so doesn’t it seem like a way of potentially reducing that alarming figure if we recognise where some of that violence comes from?

If the only drum we bang is that ‘men are worse than women’, who does that help? No one. Not men and definitely not abused women.

Whereas if wider society acknowledges that violence often comes from untreated mental illness and it is then dealt with appropriately, overall violence, especially against women, begins to reduce.

Also, I never said or implied that I think women are treated fairly in society, so please don’t make out I’ve said things that I haven’t.

Three women per week killed at the hands of men in the UK alone.

This or other variations of the statistic come out all the time in these threads, (and have done for years), very few dispute it.

But do you actually think that it means anything to the male on the end of the abuse/violence?

We should be against all forms of DV/DA no matter the perpetrator or the victim.

[quote Wondermule]@RootyT00t

They even said on the programme she was addicted to the validation and attention that being famous gave her.[/quote]
That's not the same as being addicted to fame.

@raskolnikova

But there are people who seem to believe that being reprimanded for her actions contributed to her death and that she shouldn't have been in the process (see the anger towards the police/CPS). As I said, she killed herself before trial so we will never get an official guilty/not guilty, people will make up their minds based on what they know.

No, this is not true.

The anger is about the way the media and police handled it.

Good point about the treatment of Ant Vs Caroline.

I can't find the post now but whoever said she should have gone to the priory because she has money, that is a disgusting comment.

@Potpourriandpennysweets
Hear hear. So much truth in your words.

How should the police have handled it?

I remember seeing a lot if comments at the time saying that they should not have charged her because her boyfriend didn't want them to.

Well, that's fine, but people will have their opinions.

The facts are though is that the mother was successful to have the police investigated based on the following

Lewis Burton was interviewed despite being drunk
They did not interview Caroline at the time and left her at the station for nine hours and when the mother asked for an update the DI said she didn't know if Caroline was still in the station
No DNA was taken of the blood to ascertain who's it was
Lewis was allowed to take photos the sheets and send them to his ex, because after lifting Caroline they left him there in the house he didn't live in

It's a tough one. I felt sorry for her when I was watching it but I also can't understand why you would court fame if you couldn't handle it. She was always on social media and seemed to need attention. She couldn't handle the downside though. I don't think in this day and age you can have it both ways. Being in the public eye these days means you have 24/7 press about you both positive and negative. Anyone who doesn't like this needs to step away from the limelight.

@BigBamboo

It's a tough one. I felt sorry for her when I was watching it but I also can't understand why you would court fame if you couldn't handle it. She was always on social media and seemed to need attention. She couldn't handle the downside though. I don't think in this day and age you can have it both ways. Being in the public eye these days means you have 24/7 press about you both positive and negative. Anyone who doesn't like this needs to step away from the limelight.

She made it clear on social media she was suicidal.

This wasn't about attention, really was it.

Also, being in the public eye (in Caroline's case presenting a TV show) does not make it OK for the media to bully you. It was them who needed to step away not her.

@RootyT00t

Well, that's fine, but people will have their opinions.

The facts are though is that the mother was successful to have the police investigated based on the following

Lewis Burton was interviewed despite being drunk
They did not interview Caroline at the time and left her at the station for nine hours and when the mother asked for an update the DI said she didn't know if Caroline was still in the station
No DNA was taken of the blood to ascertain who's it was
Lewis was allowed to take photos the sheets and send them to his ex, because after lifting Caroline they left him there in the house he didn't live in

I don't know how much of this is common knowledge, because I don't remember people expressing anger at the police because of these things. I clearly remember lots of comments in the media/social media after she died expressing anger at the CPS for continuing with the prosecution even though LB didn't want them to, CF had mental health issues, etc. That's what I was referring to.

@Jellykat

I felt so sad after watching that last night..

Have to say i really felt she didnt get the help she needed, as an example her best friend said she 'took her eye off the ball' and didnt contact her at a crucial time for 3 days, because Caroline had said she was ok. If that was my best mate who'd previously tried to commit suicide, and had a history of self harm, i'd be ringing twice a day to check, if not camping on their bloody doorstep!

Not one person said they'd tried to get her to seek help, it came across as a 'just a matter of time' inevitable result..

Don't forget the blood on the bed was hers not his, what an awful desperately sad situation.

Don't underestimate how very, very tiring and draining it can be living with another persons mental illness. It can drag you down and deplete you to the point where you can't function normally. My much loved daughter was mentally ill for a long time and although I did everything I could there were a few nights when I checked into a local travel lodge just to have a few hours respite.
CF's friend probably just needed some downtime to attend to her own life and now she is living with guilt although the reality is that if someone is determined to take their own life there is very little other people can do to stop them.

@NailsNeedDoing

Three women per week killed at the hands of men in the UK alone

Right, so doesn’t it seem like a way of potentially reducing that alarming figure if we recognise where some of that violence comes from?

If the only drum we bang is that ‘men are worse than women’, who does that help? No one. Not men and definitely not abused women.

Whereas if wider society acknowledges that violence often comes from untreated mental illness and it is then dealt with appropriately, overall violence, especially against women, begins to reduce.

Also, I never said or implied that I think women are treated fairly in society, so please don’t make out I’ve said things that I haven’t.

You said it here:

But I don’t agree that they are treated more harshly than men by society

And again, you’re the one who brought up role reversal. All I did was point out how illogical that is.

That’s not the same as saying they are treated fairly. I don’t think women are treated fairly in many areas of life, but nor do I think that they are treated more harshly than men when they are violent towards someone else. They might be by the media, but not by pubic opinion. Like I said, there’s a lot of public sympathy out there for CF, you don’t see that for any of the men you listed.

I’m assuming there’s a reason why you won’t pick up on the other points I made though.