To lie to get a contextual offer for DS?

[midnightorchid]

Name changed.

DS (17) is having talks from school about applying for university and I have also been looking into the contextual offers. DS wants to apply for a very competitive course, for which the interviews count for a lot. We are a FSM family as I am a carer for ds2, but live in a naice area as I rent a property from a close friend for half the market rental value. From what I have read due to our postcode DS will not get a contextual flag. Ex DH however lives in an area with the worst POLAR score and this would get a flag.

DS will not perform well at the interview, he narrowly missed the ASD criteria when assessed but he very much presents with ASD traits. He is very literal, doesn't expand answers etc and the questions he is likely to be asked in the interview require detailed, thinking outside the box answers.

WIBU to put DS's address on the UCAS as his df's address? If it wasn't for my friend renting me her house then I would nearly 100% be living in a qualifying postcode. This will not qualify him for a contextual offer (as his course does not offer contextual grades) but according to the university sites they will take into consideration lack of preparation/appropriate responses in the interview. DS could even move in with his DF for a period of time so that technically this is true.

Obviously this is lying (although if he moved in it wouldn't be) so I feel very conflicted, but I'm quite sure without this that DS will do well in the interview, no matter how well he is prepped. I have no doubt he can get the required grades and wouldn't even consider this if it wasn't for his difficulties.

@midnightorchid I would look a summer schools with Sutton Trust or the uni he wants to attend.

If he meets the criteria for the summer school and his applications is successful this will also give him a contextual offer.

Both my DC have achieved contextual offers and been guaranteed an interview at their chosen uni for the course they wanted to study.

I certainly wouldn't lie. The student finance and ucas are linked.

[quote midnightorchid]@Newkitchen123, I got the impression that parents fill the form in, but from reading here I see that is absolutely not the case so I retract anything I said about that. Obviously if ds couldn't fill in a form then even contemplating going to university would be ridiculous.[/quote]
Both my teens filled in the online UCAS for at school, as parents the only input we had was a discussion about what courses or universities they were thinking of applying to it was their guidance teacher and year head were the ones who assisted.

I’m not sure doing this will help?

Allowing extra consideration at interview doesn’t mean allowing people in with crap interviews. It means realising some students are less practiced, get less help, might have less supra and extra curricular opportunities to talk about. If your son is likely to just answer in a couple of words and not expand etc, it won’t help him.

Also you can’t do it without his knowledge or consent. He has to fill in his UCAS form, and you will need to make sure student finance and UCAS forms both have the same address on them, so consider the ramifications of doing this on his finance amount. I had two students last year who were investigated by SFE for differing addresses.

Also bear in mind if it ever comes out that you’ve lied, he could lose his place (assuming he’d got one), at both this university and anywhere else he’d applied to.

So if you are going to do it, make sure you’re confident that he’d cope if that happened.

I'd say do what is best for your child. But is what you're considering best for him? If he should be filling out the forms himself how are you going to justify putting his address as his father's place? If he finds out the reason you want to do this it will destroy his self confidence. I think talking to disability services and admissions at the university he wants to attend and making sure FMS and the bursary are recognised in the paperwork the school provides is a better option all round as isn't dishonest and won't harm your DC confidence. And practice interviews with him. Maybe the university would be happy to provide a list of common questions so he can practice. Or MN posters might be able to give some examples from they or their DC interview questions when applying for the university course he wants. Then you can practice those with him.

[quote midnightorchid]@Newkitchen123, I got the impression that parents fill the form in, but from reading here I see that is absolutely not the case so I retract anything I said about that. Obviously if ds couldn't fill in a form then even contemplating going to university would be ridiculous.[/quote]
It would never have occurred to me that filing a form in would be done by anyone other than the student.

This thread is strange. Only on mn are such morals adhered to. In RL I'm far too honest. Many people bend the rules a lot. I'm starting to realise I'm too honest and they are just playing the game.

How big a lie is this? He does stay with his dad sometimes?

I know 3 people who live in council houses and get everything paid for them, 10 people who do tax returns who really aren't self employed, pay minimal tax. I can't get a nhs brace for Ds2 even though his teeth are overcrowded and overlapping.

Everywhere I turn I get nothing, whereas everyone else gets what they want.

I'd also be helping him to look beyond university, at the career concerned. Would it suit him?

For example, if he would not do well at interview, and the course is medicine, what kind of doctor would he make? (A course with an enormous emphasis on excellent communication skills). University is just a stepping stone.

Oblo - I just tend not to lie at all - doesn't matter if big or little lie. Simpler just to be truthful which is actually the foundation of most people's moral codes anyway. Best to come last than cheat. You feel better too. The truth rocks!

I've looked into summer schools but as we are not on mainland UK we are not eligible unfortunately, he won't qualify for any widening participation events due to our location.
Thanks to whoever gave the books/website recommendations for the interview process, that will be our homework over the summer holidays.

@Cocomarine

If it makes you feel any better, a friend’s son got a contextual offer based on his postcode as the area he lives in has pockets of deprivation - but he himself was actually at the local private school which is quite an established name, and expensive.

Same thing happened to a colleague of mine . Her daughter received a contextual offer The postcode in which they live has some areas of deprivation, but my colleague lives in a beautiful six bedroomed home and is very comfortable financially As others said, do what is best for your child

Contextual offers were designed to target bright capable kids who would have got in in normal circumstances, but are at that specific time about behind because their parents do not have the educational level or intellect to support them through their education and the school they go to do not have the resources to support more able children. Kids whose parents or family couldn't afford to do extra curriculum activities, tutoring etc...

Unfortunately, looking at individual circumstances is not possible so socuo-educational scales at to be used instead.

Because children living in lower economical areas are more likely to have families with lower educational attainment and more likely to go to lower performing schools.

A friend of my eldest DS got a contextual offer to study medicine. This was based solely on her address. Despite the fact that she lived in one of the best area of town and attend private school until her parents divorced when in Y13 and her mum had to move to a council home. Her dad earned A 6 figure income and paid a very high maintenance. She got plenty of tutoring to prepare for the entry exams and interviews.

Yet another friend who went to a school rated 'in need of requirements' didn't because his mum managed to move out into abetter area when he was 15 but couldn't get solace in the massively oversubscribed local school).

The system can't be fair for all, but chosing to cheat it purposely is really poor. Nothing is worth more long term than teaching our kids integrity.

Nothing is worth more long term than teaching our kids integrity.

This one sentence is the answer you are looking for OP.

@dontdisturbmenow Yes! To be the intent of the contextual offers idea and to the shortcomings of it in practice.

I teach at a pretty elite university, but we also actively try to widen our admissions scope - we take BTEC qualifications for example (where many of our competitors don't).

So I see the range of support that young people have. And what is wonderful about seeing 'non-traditional' undergrads is how they grow & develop, given opportunities, good curricula, expert teaching and opportunities to learn in a variety of ways.

I don’t think everyone is “at it”. I do think that a few tend to pursue the “adjustments” route (ie extra time) and I’m afraid that it does seem that some schools are a little more, er, enthusiastic about encouraging this than others. Also you only have to look at The Student Room website to see hundreds of “How can I get extra time?” Or “What counts as anxiety for interviews?” type posts.

I don’t think colluding with your ds regarding the address would be wise - a) because it could be found out and b) because it would have to involve your ds and as a necessity (because the school deals with HIM not YOU) instructing him why and how to lie. You may want to think about how this makes you look in his eyes and also that having to sustain the subterfuge might make him anxious. We’ve all hissed “Say you’re 15” at our dcs when buying a train ticket (well, I have , but I would never obligate my dcs to sustain a lie which may well come back to haunt them very badly.

Concentrate on interview practice. My ds was (is) awfully shy, awkward and monosyllabic. You can help him to fake it to make it.

(I don't even do the train ticket thing not least because lawyers can lose their whole career with that mind of lie - and here is a barrister who was disbarred for it www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/28/barrister-disbarred-for-dodging-train-fares-peter-barnett,

My son missed his train back to university from a medical appointment in London the other week by 2 minutes as the tubes were very slow. He paid £34 extra for the next train (as the train station office would not be moved on allowing him to use the previous ticket) - he said it was just as well as tickets and rail fares were checked on the train that day).

(Actually he managed to blame his university.... as their careers service woke him early with a call so he fell back asleep after and then slept in so left a bit late although it is stretching things a bit far to blame the early call).

The statement above a pp made about integrity being the most important value we teach our dc is so true. I'm feeling quite ashamed and disappointed in myself today for even considering this. Yesterday I found a thread about ds' course and the lengths parents are going to to help/coach/prepare their dc really threw me. Due to our circumstances I feel very ill equipped and out of my depth with these things and there is definitely an element of imposter syndrome coming through too. I don't want to feel that ds misses out on a course because of me and our circumstances, that have greatly impacted on him.

Thank you again for everyone who has contributed, lots of very helpful advice and a much needed kick up the backside for me.

The way I saw it was not even a lie, tbf. He can physically move into your ex's address and it's not a lie anymore. But obviously it comes with other problems and consequences, like then he may not be considered FSM child anymore according to your ex's income.

All those people who are saying integrity etc, I am sure they would do anything for their dc if you can do it legally. This world isn't fair.

FYI, I hate lying, and I won't lie. I hate cheating too. But I wasn't totally sure if this is lying. Many rich people move to nice area with nice school. I see no difference from it.

But it would have been a lie. Op had no intention of asking her ds to move in with his Dad, she was planning to give the wrong address without even letting either of them know what she was doing.
You can't spin that as not lying or cheating.

I hear you OP.

I'm a "play by the rules" person but within the last few weeks I feel like I've had a sudden realisation about how much rich people buy advantages in life. (I mean, I always knew that, but it's different to see it play out.)

For example, we're hiring at work right now and are using an agency for the first time. It's possibly obvious to everyone else in the universe but it's never properly occurred to me before: there are people out there who have agents who hunt for job opportunities for them, who call them about them when a job reminds them of them, gives them the job advert weeks in advance of it going live and coach them in their application and interview skills.

Meanwhile on another forum, there was a post from someone who had free access to a VIP personal trainer for a month. They built them a custom exercise programme, created a meal plan, delivered the meals, gave daily personalised coaching and so on.

There are just lots of people out there who have total professional support alongside the very obvious gardener, cleaner, nannies, tutors etc.

And then there are the idiots like me blundering along working everything out from scratch, believing in fairness, and wondering why we are so useless.

I tell you what, OP. Get thee over to the Higher Education threads for help and advice!

I was clueless when ds applied to university. Well, I had been in the 1980s, but nearly everything has changed and my input was dangerously dinosaurish. If you ignore all the braggers and fantasists on the student room, there is valuable help there too, with admissions officers and official university representatives giving input.

It does sometimes seem as if everyone else is in the know but when all is said and done it’s down to the candidate.

GreyhoundG1rl, OP says in her opening post that ds could move in with ex. She can give him a choice of doing that, if he wants to.

@midnightorchid

The statement above a pp made about integrity being the most important value we teach our dc is so true. I'm feeling quite ashamed and disappointed in myself today for even considering this. Yesterday I found a thread about ds' course and the lengths parents are going to to help/coach/prepare their dc really threw me. Due to our circumstances I feel very ill equipped and out of my depth with these things and there is definitely an element of imposter syndrome coming through too. I don't want to feel that ds misses out on a course because of me and our circumstances, that have greatly impacted on him.

Thank you again for everyone who has contributed, lots of very helpful advice and a much needed kick up the backside for me.

Well done you. You can help him practice for the interview and you can advocate for him with the school, but at the end of the day it's up to him and his real circumstances and that's the way it should be.

Definitely get all the interviewing books you can (reserve them from your local library if you like). Have a google of "oxbridge interview charity" - a few will do free coaching and practice interviews. Just get him to talk to you out loud about his subject and know that if you don't understand it's because he's not explaining it well enough.

Don't you need ID when you attend a university interview? Would your son not need ID for the address given.