To lie to get a contextual offer for DS?

[midnightorchid]

Name changed.

DS (17) is having talks from school about applying for university and I have also been looking into the contextual offers. DS wants to apply for a very competitive course, for which the interviews count for a lot. We are a FSM family as I am a carer for ds2, but live in a naice area as I rent a property from a close friend for half the market rental value. From what I have read due to our postcode DS will not get a contextual flag. Ex DH however lives in an area with the worst POLAR score and this would get a flag.

DS will not perform well at the interview, he narrowly missed the ASD criteria when assessed but he very much presents with ASD traits. He is very literal, doesn't expand answers etc and the questions he is likely to be asked in the interview require detailed, thinking outside the box answers.

WIBU to put DS's address on the UCAS as his df's address? If it wasn't for my friend renting me her house then I would nearly 100% be living in a qualifying postcode. This will not qualify him for a contextual offer (as his course does not offer contextual grades) but according to the university sites they will take into consideration lack of preparation/appropriate responses in the interview. DS could even move in with his DF for a period of time so that technically this is true.

Obviously this is lying (although if he moved in it wouldn't be) so I feel very conflicted, but I'm quite sure without this that DS will do well in the interview, no matter how well he is prepped. I have no doubt he can get the required grades and wouldn't even consider this if it wasn't for his difficulties.

If his address is his dad’s, won’t his maintenance loan for university be based on his income and not OP’s? Also the boy’s school will be important in contextualising GCSEs. As others have said, rather than searching for “flags”, spend time on interview strategies.

Furthermore, you can’t circumvent your ds in the UCAS process. The school will be liaising with him - not you!

I am surprised at so many posters declaring that they would tell any lie to help their dcs. Perhaps watch the current Netflix documentary about the US parents who cheated to get their dcs into top colleges. Embarrassing.

UCAS Advisor here.... As a FSM student, I assume he’s now receiving the 16 -19 bursary for low income families? Make sure you speak with his referee and make sure the wider details of his circumstances are covered eg FSM, bursary. As others have said, absolutely contact admissions and provide further information, they’ll guide you. Finally, over the years I’ve had lots of contact with Oxford uni admissions re the interview process, please don’t assume they’re necessarily looking for the most dynamic, gregarious and self confident students. Suitable students don’t always fit that mould (thankfully!) Good luck to him and you

Interviews & selection processes are generally designed to use methods typical of the teaching & learning in the degree programme for which students are applying. So if he's likely to need you to prevaricate/colour the truth about where he lives, in order for him to get an offer, but he can't really cope with the selection processes, how much are you setting him up for potential failure in the degree programme itself?

Think about it.

This ^ If the interview requires students to be able to think outside the box, that is because they need to be able to think outside the box to undertake the degree. If your DS cannot do that, you are setting him up to fail his degree.

If the issue is that your DS can think outside of the box and give detailed answers but the issue is that he will struggle to do that in an interview, that is a different matter eg he struggles to recognise when he is being asked to give a detailed answer or he can structure his thoughts and an argument on paper but not verbally.

The advice to have a 16+ diagnostic assessment to see if he has any specific learning difficulties associated with his ASD traits that adjustments can be made for is good advice. That way he will get support at interview AND with his studies.

How old was he when he was assessed for ASD? If he was very young and the impact of the traits has increased since he was tested, he might meet the criteria now if he were reassessed.

You can also help him prepare for the interview, there are plenty of online resources and books. Both you and your DH have been to university so you should be able to help.

my parents and overall family attitude was very much one of aspiration and opportunity and fully supported me in extra curricular a much as they could, helped me travel to a school so far away to get a good education etc etc. It's not the same as being disadvantaged by poverty in the way some other kids are

@LilMidge01 you've put it really well (much better than my attempts to explain). In universities, we're really trying to widen participation and get kids whose families had never thought of even going past GCSEs, let alone university.

And I am trying not to say that poverty = lack of interest in education.

I once taught a really bright undergrad - amazing intellect, and she went on to do a PhD (I'd advised her to think about this in her 1st year, I could see how good she was) - and I remember chatting to her at a conference when she'd got her PhD - her family story was of 'respectable' poverty and solid working-class values.

She then told me that in her family, she was the first to get A levels, let alone go to university.

That's the kind of widening participation we're trying to encourage.

The OP's issue is that her son won't necessarily interview well. There are many solutions suggested on this thread and IME, admissions staff, and university academic staff, will work to make 'reasonable accommodations/adjustments' - as we are required to do by law.

It is nothing to do with the OP's poverty. And it is disingenuous for the OP to suggest that it is. Her DS it at a reasonable comprehensive, not a "sink school" and in an area where the general culture will be one of aspiration, and assumption that A Levels, then university, are a reasonable & doable life plan.

For far too many children in this country, still (eg my lovely undergrad/PhD student), this is not the case. Even staying on at school to do A Levels is seen as something not possible or 'not for us.'

@midnightorchid

Name changed.

DS (17) is having talks from school about applying for university and I have also been looking into the contextual offers. DS wants to apply for a very competitive course, for which the interviews count for a lot. We are a FSM family as I am a carer for ds2, but live in a naice area as I rent a property from a close friend for half the market rental value. From what I have read due to our postcode DS will not get a contextual flag. Ex DH however lives in an area with the worst POLAR score and this would get a flag.

DS will not perform well at the interview, he narrowly missed the ASD criteria when assessed but he very much presents with ASD traits. He is very literal, doesn't expand answers etc and the questions he is likely to be asked in the interview require detailed, thinking outside the box answers.

WIBU to put DS's address on the UCAS as his df's address? If it wasn't for my friend renting me her house then I would nearly 100% be living in a qualifying postcode. This will not qualify him for a contextual offer (as his course does not offer contextual grades) but according to the university sites they will take into consideration lack of preparation/appropriate responses in the interview. DS could even move in with his DF for a period of time so that technically this is true.

Obviously this is lying (although if he moved in it wouldn't be) so I feel very conflicted, but I'm quite sure without this that DS will do well in the interview, no matter how well he is prepped. I have no doubt he can get the required grades and wouldn't even consider this if it wasn't for his difficulties.

Sorry but I don't think that's ok.

He's not ASD and you could surely instead prepare him for the interview and he should be spending time on youtube etc looking up interview questions and tips?

If he can't handle interviews how will he handle job interviews?

Seems like a very easy/lazy/cheating way out.

I’m sorry OP but it sounds like you want the best of all worlds, and that what you are considering is fraudulent.

I think you’d be better off supporting your son legitimately, to build his skills so that he doesn’t need you to lie.

Thank you all for the replies, a lot of very constructive ones that are very helpful and I'll look further into this. It is early days yet and this is the first time we have been through this (I did my degree through OU as a mature student so never did UCAS) so there are lots of things to consider.

For those saying that ds isn't disadvantaged - there are a lot of details I haven't shared because I feel they aren't relevant to my AIBU, but it isn't the case that I am just trying to 'want it all ways'. Yes of course as a parent as a pp said I want to do whatever I can to help my dc, but if it is going to have ramifications then of course I won't.

For those saying get a EP report and coaching, you do realize that an EP assessment is £800-£1000 alone? That is completely out of my reach. I will buy some interview books and contact admissions. DS does get the 16-19 bursary so as a poster suggested I will contact the school and make sure they include this and the FSM in the application.

Good luck OP, your son is lucky to have such a supportive mum, and I really hope he gets the uni place he is aiming for.

He doesn't have undiagnosed ASD, he had the assessment and doesn't have ASD.

By all means include the FSM, include everything truthful you can to paint a picture of his circumstances, but no you shouldn't lie.

He won't take a place from a privately educated, heavily coached candidate, he'll take it from a state educated uncoached candidate, without advantages, who potentially would have been better suited but didn't lie. A white lie could change the course of his life but also the course of someone else's life.

@Racoonworld

I don’t agree with this at all. Your son was assessed for ASD and doesn’t have it. Not everyone is good at everything, if he isn’t good enough to get onto the course then he just isn’t. He should do something that he will be good enough at instead. Anyway he might surprise you and be great at the interview, at least give him the opportunity to try without cheating.

I agree. I think your approach is awful - sorry OP but it really is.You are doing your son no favours.

He won't take a place from a privately educated, heavily coached candidate, he'll take it from a state educated uncoached candidate, without advantages, who potentially would have been better suited but didn't lie. A white lie could change the course of his life but also the course of someone else's life.

This is exactly what I think.
I have no respect at all for people who do what you're thinking of doing OP.

OP do what is best for your son. Honestly if the world played fair then it would look very different from how it does now. Don't make choices for your son based on hand-wringing mumsnetters.

@VladmirsPoutine

OP do what is best for your son. Honestly if the world played fair then it would look very different from how it does now. Don't make choices for your son based on hand-wringing mumsnetters.

What a world we live in. Not everyone cheats their way to the top or pushes their way to the front. I would rather my DCs earned their place. If they can’t get there on their own merit or truthfully I’d rather they didn’t go.

Shoehorning him onto a course he may well sink without trace on may not be the best thing for her son.

You don’t fill the UCAS form in: he does. He will know what address is on it as it will be his UCAS account, linked to his personal email address, organised through school, that HE has to check before it’s sent. Parents should have no input into UCAS forms. His school UCAS advisor should go through the form and check details are correct with him before it’s submitted. You won’t be part of this process; you will only see it if your son chooses to show you.

Also, the address he puts is where the uni will send all the joining/freshers week info etc before he goes.

@midnightorchid

To add, I wouldn't even tell DS that I was doing this, as I'm normally a very honest person .

Thing is though, you wouldn't be able to do it without his knowledge. I filled out my UCAS application a few years ago so still remember it very clearly, he will need to fill it out and send it off so will see the address that has been put down on it. Also, at my interview for uni they usually get you to fill out a form where I needed to put in my details, name, address etc so again, he would need to put his dads address in here or it won't match up. This isn't an issue if your son will be okay with lying but if lying is going to be a problem for him it could cause him to do worse in his interview due to nerves from lying.

DS does get the 16-19 bursary so as a poster suggested I will contact the school and make sure they include this and the FSM in the application.

Presumably though, he is entitled to the bursary because you are the resident parent? Which means, if his dad earns more than you (enough that he wouldn't qualify) and the university think that this is where he lives that can't be taken in to account or he would need to be registered at your address with them. (This might be wrong but it's my understanding if it's based off your income).
Similar when it comes to applying for loans and/or possible bursaries, whether he is entitled to anything will depend on the resident patents income so if you earn less than his dad he would be entitled to more living with you iyswim. I'm not 100% sure if this would be caught out if you were to put a different address on the finance application than the ucas one but it's a risk worth thinking about if you do get caught as would technically be fraud (I think).

I think you need to include your son in the decision and see what he wants to do, as I say there would be no way of doing it without him so see if it's something he would be comfortable with

He won't take a place from a privately educated, heavily coached candidate, he'll take it from a state educated uncoached candidate, without advantages, who potentially would have been better suited but didn't lie. A white lie could change the course of his life but also the course of someone else's life.

This. He's not going to take a place from someone who was a sure bet already. He could be taking the place from someone in the same position as him, but who had told the truth or had less supportive parents.

I work in a university. Although I'm not directly involved in admissions, I can back up what a lot of others have said: the admissions tutors have years of experience with the course. Interview questions aren't random. They're asked to find the right students for that course. If he needs to be able to give detailed answers, think outside the box, etc at interview, he'll need to do that on his course too.

This is a very interesting thread about fairness and opportunity. Once you move beyond pure exam grades there will always be difficulties in deciding what counts and what does not. 3 of my children went to Bristol University (no contextual offers and I bust a gut to put every last penny into school fees too so I assume we are heavily marked down for that too as indeed perhaps are children whose parents pick a good state grammar school or posh comp).... www.bristol.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/entry-requirements-qualifications/contextual-offers/ The Bristol ist of the 40% of schools which get worse exam results tha the other 60% is www.bristol.ac.uk/media-library/sites/study/documents/aspiring-schools-2021.pdf. So if you go to a school on the list that may get people an offer 2 grades lower. My son had one friend living in a £3m (!!!!) house - i know because he asked me to deliver something to it who got one of these offers grades below his. It hasn't mattered as my son has done fine but it does leave me with a feeling of unfairness as I was expecting people from our local council estate on FSM not rich people to get these offers.

The Varsity Blues programme I watched the other night about the US admissinos scandal was interesting. In the UK no matter how good you are at sport the universities could not care less as it is all about exam results (and that is right in my view or it used to be until we brought contextual things in). In the US if you are very good at sport that can be a way out of poverty too by getting into a good place (or in this case for 30 families, may be more, a fraudster pretending the teenagers were good at sport, did photoshopped photos of them playing the sport and was in league with some university admissions people/ coaches who got cash bribes to say the person was good at sport and then ignored the fact they never turned up for the team practices once they started).

One person interviewed said he thought all US universities were good and concentrating on trying to hard to get into the best ones was silly. However I don't agree. Whilst you can do well at less good US or UK ones it still is better to get into the best one you can, lawfully. My children all know I would prefer they utterly failed than they cheated at anything ever.

He has not been diagnosed with ASD because he did not make the criteria.
Mum is filling his UCAS form, either without him seeing it or without him noticing that the address is wrong.
Surely he can fill his own form in at the age of 17.
If he can't fill a form in, I don't mean to sound harsh, but should be be on the course?
You would be better placed focusing on interview techniques and doing it honestly.

@Xenia that is interesting that you say that, as whilst our (rental) home is nowhere near £3m people would be shocked to discover that we are on FSM. Living in a nice house from the outside does not however mean there are not nice things happening inside. As I said (as pps are concurring that I have a middle class lifestyle, no idea why) I left out a lot of issues as I didn't feel they were relevant to the AIBU, but I agree with another poster that the POLAR score is a bad one to judge by. You might have FSM pupils privately renting or temporarily housed in 'good' areas and equally families who are fine financially who are owner occupiers of their much loved home on a council estate. I had 2 friends growing up who would have been horrified for people to equate them as being poor because they lived in an estate. This is sort of veering away from the topic but goes to show we have very preconceived ideas of what poverty/disadvantage should look like.

@Newkitchen123, I got the impression that parents fill the form in, but from reading here I see that is absolutely not the case so I retract anything I said about that. Obviously if ds couldn't fill in a form then even contemplating going to university would be ridiculous.

I'm aghast at some of the 'everyone's at it' views on this thread. In my experience, the people who think that way are the ones who expect others to behave in the same shitty way they do themselves.

OP, if your DS has ASD traits, I imagine he'll be hugely resistant to the idea of bending the rules, and at the end of the day this is in his hands, not yours. By all means contact the school for advice about including genuine contextual data on his UCAS application, but I honestly think that going down the route you propose will put a good deal of stress on your child.

I too am very surprised by the responses! I name changed as I expected to get a right flaming, so this leads me to believe a lot of parents attempt to pull tricks that will help their dc along, even to the detriment of others.

Is he on the SEN register even if not diagnosed? That might help them to see the interview in context.