To lie to get a contextual offer for DS?

[midnightorchid]

Name changed.

DS (17) is having talks from school about applying for university and I have also been looking into the contextual offers. DS wants to apply for a very competitive course, for which the interviews count for a lot. We are a FSM family as I am a carer for ds2, but live in a naice area as I rent a property from a close friend for half the market rental value. From what I have read due to our postcode DS will not get a contextual flag. Ex DH however lives in an area with the worst POLAR score and this would get a flag.

DS will not perform well at the interview, he narrowly missed the ASD criteria when assessed but he very much presents with ASD traits. He is very literal, doesn't expand answers etc and the questions he is likely to be asked in the interview require detailed, thinking outside the box answers.

WIBU to put DS's address on the UCAS as his df's address? If it wasn't for my friend renting me her house then I would nearly 100% be living in a qualifying postcode. This will not qualify him for a contextual offer (as his course does not offer contextual grades) but according to the university sites they will take into consideration lack of preparation/appropriate responses in the interview. DS could even move in with his DF for a period of time so that technically this is true.

Obviously this is lying (although if he moved in it wouldn't be) so I feel very conflicted, but I'm quite sure without this that DS will do well in the interview, no matter how well he is prepped. I have no doubt he can get the required grades and wouldn't even consider this if it wasn't for his difficulties.

@midnightorchid

I would ask yourself how this will play out down the line.

You say this is a practical science based course which is very oversubscribed. Is it medicine or a profession allied to medicine ?

Even if it's not medicine or paramedic or similar, if your DS gets a place on the course will he cope with the coursework assessments/tutorials if they involve the same sort of thing as an interview and will he cope with what the course leads to career-wise ?

Does it lead to a career where he will need to provide detailed well thought out answers/actions ?

If so, then you would be doing him no favours, in the long run, by getting him a contextual concession of some sort to get an interview or offer for a Uni place on that course.

the questions he is likely to be asked in the interview require detailed, thinking outside the box answers.

it is a straightforward course and career, not one that requires a thinking outside of the box mentality.

Those two statements are at complete odds with each other, op?

Don’t lie, it could come back to bite you on the backside. Can he move in with his father and change addresses legitimately?
I have to say though, if you don't think he will do well at the interview stage, do you think he will fare well at Uni?

@GreyhoundG1rl

a report from a clinical psychologist to summarise that he presents with ASD traits, yet narrowly fails the criteria, and may require consideration & support for the same kind of issues. So, a report that doesn't have autism, then.

A report that says he doesn't quite meet criteria for ASD but summarises the issues he does have.

What you cannot do is say he is undiagnosed ASD if he is not.

@seepingweeping

Do it op.

Prepare your son for interview as much as he can. The uni should know he's autistic and have supportive measures in place to accommodate his autism.

He hasn’t got a diagnosis - he didn't meet the criteria. You can’t just rock up and say ‘I know the assessment shows otherwise, but I am actually autistic”

Why are you doing the form for him?

Agree with the comments about interview coaching - that's what you should be focussing on. If he clams up or gives completely wrong answers then he won't be offered a place, regardless of any contextual data.

To add, I wouldn't even tell DS that I was doing this, as I'm normally a very honest person

@midnightorchid - I'm sorry if someone else has asked this already, and this is a genuine question, I'm not being goady...! But why won't your son be doing his own UCAS application? Is there a reason you need to do it for him?

If there is suspicion that you have lied on your UCAS application, UCAS can undertake further checks, including cross-checking information with the applicant's school. They conduct thousands of these checks every year.

If they find you have lied, they can close your application (and they can also pause your application while they investigate).

If a university discovers you have lied and in doing so fraudulently been given a place, they can withdraw that place at any time, up to and including the day you graduate.

In reality, it is unlikely that having a POLAR flag will make much difference if he simply cannot think outside the box in the way that is required. It may give the interviewer a hint that the applicant may need more coaxing to understand what is expected or to overcome nerves in a more unfamiliar situation, but if he can't do it even with this help then they are not going to give him a pass just because he has a POLAR flag, particularly if he has no school flag to match.

It's a somewhat risky strategy with little likely reward. There are better ways for you to help him.

I work in HE (although not in Admissions.)
I would agree that if he will not manage the interview, that he may well struggle during his studies - whether you get a contextualized offer or not.
He needs to be doing this himself, though; you can support and guide him, but you're not going to be there to do the course for him, so you need to let him take some control of his own destiny.

@FTEngineerM

A tiny white lie that will probably change the trajectory of his entire life. Don’t even think twice.

Get the place.

I loathe the use of white lie. It's either a lie or it isn't. If you're going to lie at least own it.

@Viviennemary

Just do it. Everybody else is up to all sorts of tricks. I didnt used to approve of deceit. But everyone's at it now.

Does "everyone's at it" make it OK?

The applications have to go through the school so they will pick up the address being wrong. Either your DS gets on his course out of merit or he doesn't. I hate people who lie to get one over on others.

FSM is usually a strong contextual flag - worth checking for that at your son’s preferred uni.

I’m very much of the opinion that you have to use whatever you can. This is something your son can very legitimately use.

the questions he is likely to be asked in the interview require detailed, thinking outside the box answers
You can assume that the allowance they might make at interview to take into consideration contextual pupils will not circumvent the above. They will still looking for the same style of response. They might just be more lenient on content of knowledge.

You know deep inside that contextual offers were not conceptualised for families like yours. Families well educated living in a nice area getting access to good school. Your DS had excellent opportunities at school and home to learn to his capability.

Unlike a bright child who could have achieved a lot more but faced restriction due to parents and school unable to support their learning.

It sounds like your DS lacks some social skills. These can be learned. Or maybe he is actually just fine but you are convinced that he isn't good enough?

if everyone else hired coaches etc to give their kids a leg up the standards of interview are higher. Leading to someone less ‘polished’ losing out. Yes it’s unethical but if someone is genuinely disadvantage and criteria doesn’t reflect it I can’t say it’s one of the worst sins.

In the OP’s case however it would make no difference - from what she says her son doesn’t seem to have the skills required for the course itself so effort should be put towards that . It won’t make a difference anywya and big risk if caught

I wouldn't think twice.
I am awful at interviews. I just don't seem to be able to "sell myself". I have been declined for multiple jobs that I could do in my sleep and have experience for simply because I just don't interview as well as others. If I had a way of giving myself a helping hand to get over that - knowing I'm more than suitable for the role - I would do it in a heartbeat.

It would be a different matter if there were any questions over his suitability or aptitude for the course. In that instance you're setting him up to fail. But from what you have said you're doing the opposite.

You mention that his school does not offer it, but the local grammar school does. This is one of the baked in injustices to lower income kids in state schools here

The complaint should be not that grammar schools offer interview help, but that other schools don't. Why don't they?

For example a lot of children from privileged families have managed work experience, etc. A child from a different background may not have had the chance... so shouldn’t be judged on this, only on their knowledge of widely available information. Also lack of career advice etc for example I didn’t even know that my current field offered so many opportunities, if I had had that advise I’d have chosen it as a degree straight away...you don’t know what you don’t know

I’d guess from what you’ve written that his target course is medicine or similar. If so, the overriding factor for interview selection are the entrance tests - ucat and bmat (depending on uni), which are combined with gcse results and predicted A levels in different ways by different unis, with usually a slightly lower threshold for interview for contextual applicants. But it is hugely competitive, in a normal year about 40% of med school applicants don’t receive a single offer, and at the moment it seems even worse due to the exam situation last year and this.

It is possible for the school to add a ‘mitigating circumstances’ type statement to the ucat form before it is submitted, which is separate to the reference, before it’s submitted to the unis. I know this because my daughter had an issue which caused her to get lower gcses than predicted, and to need a year out of education before starting her A levels - the school attached a statement explaining her situation.

Medical schools screen hundreds upon hundreds of candidates every year - they know what they’re looking for - ultimately people who will cope with the demands of the course and the career, and make safe, competent doctors. It costs a lot of money to train a doctor! In my daughter’s cohort there’s a very diverse mix of people - they are not all chatty confident types. I’d advise phoning the uni or the careers teacher at school to talk about your interview concerns. How does your son feel about the process? And is he fixated on one particular uni or just on the course?

Levi, OP has said that 'he is very literal, doesn't expand answers etc and the questions he is likely to be asked in the interview require detailed, thinking outside the box answers'

If the education involves a career working with patients for instance, then these traits could indeed be significant hindrance to being good at the job.

For years, medical schools valued intellect oy when selecting candidates. This resulted in a number of professionals incapable of interacting properly with patients and colleagues. Nowadays, schools value social.skilks just as much as intellect.

Being capable of doing a job doesn't mean it will be done well and to satisfaction to customers. Of course interviews can be very subjective, it's hard to get to know someone in that short time, but they are nowadays designed to select the most likely well rounded candidates.

The careers department until now has been pretty useless

How come? What are you hoping for?
Did your son access their help? I work in education and very often there are resources and other help available, but students don't bother accessing it.

If your son spends time at his dads, then use the address. However, they may assume that he spends more time at his dad's, and has enjoyed the standard of living at his dad's.

What is the course?

@midnightorchid

Thank you for the responses. To clarify a few points:

1. Contextual grade offers are not given, just consideration at interview stage.

1. His school is a bog standard comp, but to get a contextual flag it has to be in the worst category, which it isn't.

1. The course is a practical science related one, but very oversubscribed hence the interviews. IMO DS would be fine on the course, it is a straightforward course and career, not one that requires a thinking outside of the box mentality.

1. Contacting admissions would not help as DS does not have a diagnosis.

1. Both me and Ex DH have been to uni so that will not help him. The only contextual flag he could get would be to use his df's address.

What would I think if someone else did this? Honestly speaking, not a lot. I don't see it as any more of a leg up that getting a private tutor or going to a private/independent school. As he won't get a contextual grade offer I don't feel he will potentially remove the place from someone else.

He does not have a diagnosis not because he has undiagnosed ASD....he had an assessment and didn't meet the criteria.

You both went to uni. You live in a good area and he doesn't go to a bad school.

I'm unclear what you believe the disadvantage is that you're trying to level the playing field for.....other than you think your kid won't interview well. I was sort of with you up until this post. He has no disadvantage, you're just trying to find excuses

[quote midnightorchid]@zzizzer yes he could legitimately move to his dad's and I'd inform the school etc, but i'm hesitant to do this as it could cock up my UC and potentially I'd get behind in the rent.[/quote]
I was a bit more on the fence until I saw this. You can't have it all ways - either he lives with his father, has experienced disadvantage as a consequence and could use his address on the form (in which case I suspect your UC would change), or you are honest and give his actual address (yours) which is more reflective of his actual circumstances.

I also know I would be upset/disappointed to find out that an offer I thought I had received on my own merit was actually because my parent got involved and manipulated the situation behind my back.

@SML107 has it bang on.

@midnightorchid

MeltsAway have you missed the bit about us being a FSM family, so we are in receipt of benefits? This means we are in theory living in poverty.

But your 'poverty' is not the reason for your child's potential lack of attainment or aspiration. You know it yourself when you say "in theory". You're essentially saying "I live like I'm middle class in terms of where I live, how I've schooled my child, the opportunities put before him and in supporting aspirations for a university education...but I dont have as much in the bank, so he should get a place". That sort of monetary consideration comes at student finance stage if you have money worries. It's not the same.

I grew up in Council housing to parents with very low incomes and qualified for the full amount of everything from student finance. But I definitely don't think I grew up in "poverty" in a way that affected me getting in to university, as it did some other kids, precisely because I lived in a nice area, got an exception place in a really good school, (albeit far away) and my parents and overall family attitude was very much one of aspiration and opportunity and fully supported me in extra curricular a much as they could, helped me travel to a school so far away to get a good education etc etc. It's not the same as being disadvantaged by poverty in the way some other kids are.