To lie to get a contextual offer for DS?

[midnightorchid]

Name changed.

DS (17) is having talks from school about applying for university and I have also been looking into the contextual offers. DS wants to apply for a very competitive course, for which the interviews count for a lot. We are a FSM family as I am a carer for ds2, but live in a naice area as I rent a property from a close friend for half the market rental value. From what I have read due to our postcode DS will not get a contextual flag. Ex DH however lives in an area with the worst POLAR score and this would get a flag.

DS will not perform well at the interview, he narrowly missed the ASD criteria when assessed but he very much presents with ASD traits. He is very literal, doesn't expand answers etc and the questions he is likely to be asked in the interview require detailed, thinking outside the box answers.

WIBU to put DS's address on the UCAS as his df's address? If it wasn't for my friend renting me her house then I would nearly 100% be living in a qualifying postcode. This will not qualify him for a contextual offer (as his course does not offer contextual grades) but according to the university sites they will take into consideration lack of preparation/appropriate responses in the interview. DS could even move in with his DF for a period of time so that technically this is true.

Obviously this is lying (although if he moved in it wouldn't be) so I feel very conflicted, but I'm quite sure without this that DS will do well in the interview, no matter how well he is prepped. I have no doubt he can get the required grades and wouldn't even consider this if it wasn't for his difficulties.

Do it and don’t feel bad about it. Those with money buy their children’s privilege throughout life.

OP, if your ex is better off financially, could he pay for support and help with interviews?

If you mined to share the course, some posters could make recommendations here or in Education.

Those with money buy their children’s privilege throughout life
Some do. Most don't.

So those with money don’t buy houses in the best areas so their children don’t attend the best schools? They don’t pay for music lessons and sports clubs? Tutoring for important exams like Aqe , 11plus or GCSEs? Nonsense. Use your ex’s address on everything to do with university applications.

@dontdisturbmenow

Those with money buy their children’s privilege throughout life Some do. Most don't.

I think it's opposite. Most do, some don't. It's clear from the posts I've read on MN in the past, they may not cheat the system, but they may use any means to do the best for their children, including moving to better area, moving to the catchment to better school, etc. And according to OP, she can do it legally, though I am not 100% sure if she can use this as the advantage due to other factors.

Haven't RTFT but I haven't heard of anyone lately "filling out their child's UCAS form for them." The application is done online, by the student, requiring the student's email address and contact number. It is usually mostly done at school in special supervised sessions with lots of advice. It is then checked by the school before submission.

I cannot imagine a situation in 2021 where a child who is a current 6th form student a) allows their Mum to make their application for them and b) remains oblivious of her telling a big fat lie on his behalf.

OP, unis are all about widening participation and welcoming a wide range of students. Maybe also speak to the university support team. They sometimes have students who volunteer to help support and advise sixth formers applying to university. There may also be ex students from his college/school who may be willing to help him with application and interview too.

I'm still intrigued by a highly competitive course, which interviews, requires oodles of parental manipulation/tutoring/help to get into, asks interview questions which will require detailed answers & thinking outside the box' , but the actual course is a straightforward course and career, not one that requires a thinking outside of the box mentality

It sounds like medicine (or other health-related degrees), or engineering, or vet science - all of which require a huge amount of 'thinking outside the box' every working day (I have family in all those jobs).

Just read your update OP. I can understand where the motive comes from OP. We want our children to succeed in life and we want to help them all we can. There is a line though when it comes to integrity and I can see from your update that you know this!

I’ve been watching a new Netflix doc called ‘Operation Varsity Blues: The college admissions scandal’. Whilst this goes way way beyond anything this thread is about it is an interesting watch. The super rich cheating and lying to push their DC to the front of the queue. One of the tactics (along with paying millions of $) was to get their DC diagnosed so that they are ‘entitled to ‘difference’ : extra time etc. Because of this, their DC took exams on their own and the person in charge of the exam would alter the paper for a high score. It’s disgusting!
Those saying ‘others don’t play fair’ are right. They don’t. Especially the super rich.

YABU, don’t lie it’s just wrong..he should earn his place instead of you lying and cheating ur way in

I think it is an important distinction as between those who put money into a pension to get tax relief or ensure husband and wife both work so they have 2 personal allowances or give money away more than 7 years before you die - all perfectly lawful and reduces lawfully taxes compared with someone being paid in cash and not telling the tax man - a crime, evasion and you can go to prison. It does not matter where morals draw a line. All that counts is what the law decides - no point in risking loss of a university place through a lie.

So it might feel unfair that a working mother can afford trumpet lessons for their son (not that that as ever helped my sons who play the trumpet to get a job and my older son drives a food delivery van for a living by the way) but that kind of "help" is not against the law.

I’m confused, so you live in a nice postcode and so your son goes to a nice school from that catchment. Albeit a bog standard comp. why should your child get an extra advantage over others when he’s not ended up living somewhere that warrants it.

Unless DS moves for quite some time to his dad’s I would be far too concerned the lie gets found out. Surely there’s some kind of fraud risk?

Instead of trying to find ways to cheat the system, why not support him to use the next six months before he applies to build relevant experience? He should interview people who work in his chosen field, if work shadowing is not possible, do volunteering, complete an EPQ, really work at his A Levels so that he boosts his grades rather than relying on a contextual offer.

If he lies on his form, he will always wonder if he deserves to be there, and so will everyone else if they find out.

Which science course would have an interview as part of the selection process that is not assessing the same skills that are required for the course?

DS is studying Natural Sciences at Cambridge. In the interviews, all he was asked to do was to solve maths, physics and chemistry problems. It was the same skills as he needs for the problem sheets and supervisions he does every week. He has a diagnosis of ASD and ADHD, and there was the opportunity to request interview adjustments for disability but he couldn't think of any specific adjustments he'd need, so he didn't request any adjustments.

A contextual flag such as postcode / POLAR score would have been taken into consideration by the admissions team, but he'd still need to have performed well at interview (teachable; able to absorb new information and apply it to unfamiliar problems).

Contact the Sutton Trust for advice. Their whole purpose is to support disadvantaged students with educational opportunities, especially university admissions. They will be able to advise you on the ethical ways to get your son’s context taken into consideration. You also need his school on side so talk to the head of sixth form (or whoever will do his UCAS reference) and ensure they are taking the ST guidance too.

On the remote chance that it is a similar course, some of the types of questions that come up in interview are estimation (e.g. "how would you estimate the mass of the earth's atmosphere?") or being asked to sketch a graph of an algebraic function.

As someone who has 3 degrees, from 3 different universities (one which is the top northern uni) and whose 17 year old DS has just had an unconditional offer from BIMM I am so confused by this thread. I got onto my BSc, MSc and my doctorate based on academic ability. DS got his offer based on his instrument performance and technical ability. We did not need scores or coaching or flags or to worry about living in areas. In fact I didn't know this shit existed. We were dirt poor (as in 8k a year and full HB/tax credits) up until 2 years ago until everything turned around re my job and now we are a 70k a year household. You get in to university on individual merit and ability don't you? I don't think these 'helping hands' from parents make that much difference at all.

@dontdisturbmenow

Those with money buy their children’s privilege throughout life Some do. Most don't.

This is either very naive or based on a sample of weirdly shit parents.

Parents who are able to buy their children's privilege may not do so for the specific purpose of giving them a leg up over their peers, but the things they do in order to give their children a well-rounded, enriched and fulfilling life have that effect.

At the lower end of 'those with money', I pay for music lessons and take my children on a wide range of days out and expose them to a lot of culture because I think that's a nice childhood and is intrinsically valuable. But undoubtedly these things will stand them in good stead at university interviews (for example) relative to those who haven't had those experiences. Likewise my mum helped with my deposit so I could pay through the nose for a mortgage on a nicer flat rather than endlessly paying through the nose for a ropey rented flat.

For the most part we do what we can for our children with the resources we have. That reproduces privilege, more often than not.

@midnightorchid

To add, I wouldn't even tell DS that I was doing this, as I'm normally a very honest person .

How on earth would that work? He has to be part of his UCAS application. I don't think you can make this decision for him. That would be wrong and a breach of trust. Personally I wouldn't do it but it doesn't sound like it's the end of the world of you do. I'd be a little concerned about student finance.

I guess it depends on how 'tight' the admissions criteria is

If he can put his fathers address where he does not live, and this will still be accepted, I guess take advantage

I imagine it's not as strict as primary school applications where you must have one permanent home address ie it can't be an alternative rental address when you have another 'permanent' home

Most importantly however, do you think he's actually suited to the course if you don't think he'll make it through the interview?

That's probably more important to focus on rather than which address to use

[quote midnightorchid]@zzizzer yes he could legitimately move to his dad's and I'd inform the school etc, but i'm hesitant to do this as it could cock up my UC and potentially I'd get behind in the rent.[/quote]
Will this not be affected anyway as he will be 18 quite soon?

Sorry, meant to add to my post that it may be of benefit for you start seeing how the changes will affect you once he comes off any claim you make so you are prepared.

@midnightorchid it's incredibly easy to feel that everyone else is doing far more than you are.

If it's any help: my older son is at Cambridge. When he was about to go I was looking at Oxbridge threads on here and came across this:

"Months of stress, anxiety and activity. The application process was all-consuming."

The poster was describing her own experience of her daughter's application. I was a bit because all I remembered of the application process was reading the first draft of the personal statement that had been left in the lounge, saying "oh by the way, did you finish filling in your UCAS form?" and driving to Cambridge and back for the actual physical interview.

S2 has just had an offer from Cambridge too. We were slightly more involved this time, but still only in a checking what needs to be done kind of way.

It's easy to think that everyone who's successful had loads of help from their parents, but it's not actually true. (Disclaimer: I'm talking specifically about the UCAS process. I know our circumstances attitudes priorities lifestyle etc will have had an effect.)

Don't know whether you noticed, but a few pages back I suggested finding out whether the neighbouring grammar school would be prepared to help with interview technique, maybe as a Community Project.