Do 'boyish'-looking girls get harrassed less than other women?

[Echobelly]

Wanted to ask about a theory of mine, as I've wondered about this before. I don't seem to have experienced anything like as much harrassment or worse than most other women - something I've very glad of. I totally believe it is as bad as other women say it is, btw, but I do wonder if I came in for less grief as I was small, flat chested and, during my teens and 20s, the most 'harrassable' ages i suppose, I had cropped short hair. I think maybe I just didn't register on the radar of the sort of bloke who likes to harrass or grope women so they left me alone.

I'm quite prepared that dozens of similar women will report yes, they were harrassed plenty, just interested to find out people's experiences and I need a largish sample to actually look into this!

I do think being a tall women helps prevent harassment. I'm 5 ft 9, but I have a young daughter and a son and I do worry for both when they are older. More on the getting consent side and teaching him correctly not to do something when someone is drunk for example for my boy and the safety side of general life for my girl. A big source of frustration growing up for me was how limited what I was allowed to do v what my brother was allowed to do.

Nah / I was curb crawled years ago on my way to the gym mid morning wearing loose sweatpants and a hoodie. I couldn't have looked less feminine and got abuse

Totally agree about Paris. The level of harassment I experienced there on various trips was astonishing. I even had a man grab my breast with one hand and the crotch of my friend at the same time, and another man try to persuade me into his car which had his Grandmother already in it !
I was a stereotypically pretty young woman, I modelled for a while and even with very short hair had constant hassle from men. I also found that really nice men would often not approach me at all (only found out years later that they liked me) and instead I would get harassed by really horrible, angry men. I was very slim then and although quite tall I am slightly built, so I looked fragile, and I also looked very young for a long time. I would get men keen to insult me, men who saw me as a trophy, men who felt they could just walk up and comment on my appearance, daily hassle and aggression, It was horrible. I am in my fifties now and I live rurally, I haven’t had any hassle since my mid forties, and definitely the worst of it was from 15-35. Twenty years of harassment ! I looked like a twenty something in my thirties and I think that was part of why it went on for so long.
I really like the relative invisibility of middle age, but now I have teenage daughters and I am dreading this happening to them. Getting older has also made me realise how much men pretended to listen to me just because I was young, “pretty” and vulnerable looking.
Of course women of all ages, even very elderly, still get assaulted , but younger ones do seem to get far more daily grief. The shocking thing to me , looking back, is the rage in these men. The anger at our very existence as young women. Where does this come from ?

My experience is that sexual harassment tends to be far more prevalent towards attractive women.

Yes in Paris I was surrounded by street hawkers and as I was pregnant I was quite intimidated. I was with my husband who is enormous and very scary looking. Being from London and of the lairy variety, I shouted loudly “BACK OFF”. Red rag to a bull that was. They closed in even further - you want us to back off, do you? You can’t tell us what to do etc

After lots of “Back the fuck off, get the fuck away from me” which did nothing - I then just let out an enormous high pitched scream and they ran off. I wasn’t afraid as such, I was just amazed at their fucking audacity.

@imalmostthere

Am I the only one who thinks this is in poor taste? All women are at risk of harassment, no matter their appearance. I don't think I'm overly attractive, I'm equally not unattractive- but there are a lot better out there than me! Yet I've been stalked, harassed, groped, had unsolicited pics sent, had my vagina grabbed in a night club when a man shoved his hand up my dress and into my knickers, and been raped. There are a lot prettier women out there that by your post would be more "obvious targets". It's not about that. It's about power, coercion and control. I really think this is a horrible post actually.

It's women sharing their experience in a bid to try and understand the motivation behind the men who do this. That's all. It's not a judgement on the women.

Please don't try and shut down discussion. If we can't talk about this stuff openly here, then where in the hell can we?

As I said earlier, I think it's worth discussing this as long as we are not seeing it in a "what women should do to avoid harassment" kind of way. It's discussing men and our experiences with them, and I think that's a very important thing for women in general, as a form of support and understanding.

I have a DS and bringing him up not to be a misogynist among all the other influences is worrying for me. Discussing things like this helps me with that as well.

I had short spiky hair when I was 14 and refused to wear skirts. I was a late developer and quite underweight for my age with no curves at all.

Regularly got beeped by drivers, wolf whistled by builders and received unwanted attention from older boys at school including having my bag taken to make me get off the bus a few stops early to try and retrieve it from the buy who had taken it. He made me follow him half a mile and said he wouldn't give me it back unless I kissed him. A female member of the public assisted me thankfully.

Also I was attacked , pushed to the ground and sexually assaulted by a stranger on my way to school age 14 - in school uniform ,trousers , sensible shoes and my usual short spiked 80's hair do.

Was also "flashed" twice as a school girl.

@Changechangychange - I seem to be in that sweet spot when I wasn't 'pretty' enough to be grabbed and have gross comments made at me, but not 'ugly' enough for guys to apparently be angry with me for not being pretty/feminine enough.

@EBearhug - your colleagues' comment about 'You're one of us' says a lot about the problem. Too many men separate women they know - 'Oh, I couldn't perv over Sarah' - from women they don't know, who apparently aren't people with feelings about having 'Nice tits love!' yelled at them constantly when they're out minding their own business.

I don't think it is 'boyish' looks, just age and breast size, that probably is the biggest determinant of how much harassment a woman gets.

@Blondiney the motivation is power, and control. Serial and opportunity rapists thrive on control and the opportunity, and it has zero to do with what a woman looks like.
Women's rights and the assault on women in today's society is absolutely a discussion we should be having. Sharing experiences, helping others understand them and trying to stop this happening as frequently as it is.
We shouldn't be taking about what a woman looks like and if they're more or less likely to be attacked for it. I despair If people cannot see that's hideous. What does that teach anyone??
"You aren't as pretty so you probably won't get raped".
"You are beautiful so be careful, you're more likely to be assaulted".
That's basically the gist of this conversation, just extremely sugar coated!

IME it's a different sort of harassment. When I was young, if they spotted a girl under the loose sweater, jeans and wellies, you got flack for not being feminine enough.

Oh, and 'walking like a boy.' I have long legs and apparently striding along as if you meant it wasn't feminine either.

I was very sporty when I was a teenager and had no breasts to speak of. I also had very short hair and regularly got mistaken for a boy. I was catcalled & harassed both by men & boys many times.

In college I walked past a building site several times a day and there was a marked difference between wearing my hair loose and contacts, and the invisiblity cloak of wearing glasses and tying my hair up.

I’ve had relatively little street harassment but being the plainer, less overtly feminine friend elicited a vein of nasty misogyny from boyfriends of my attractive friends. As if by not being their idea of attractive my existence is a personal affront. I’ve never understood how that isn’t a red flag. There’s some sexual psychology to be unpicked there.

Being small and slim and lightweight in clubs has been a disadvantage. I’ve been physically picked up countless times and once dragged outside by a man who I had declined to dance with.

I completely agree with posters who identify vulnerability as a factor. Sharks circling.

@Echobelly

I think short women have it much easier than tall women - men definitely seem to get aggressive about it The worst I get is patronised.

I've heard men get funny about tall women, so I'm aware that happens, but short women (especially if they're very short) in my experience get men who try to intimidate them, thinking that they can overpower the woman so easily (which in fairness, they probably can).

I have a very feminine look, so I used to dress in very baggy clothes, masculine, athletic wear to compensate. I was very aggressive at one stage to try and stop men trying it on all the time. Sometimes they still didn't back down!

I think being very short can make you seem like an easy target (in my experience).

@imalmostthere I don’t agree that the gist of this conversation is what you said - ie:

You aren't as pretty so you probably won't get raped".
"You are beautiful so be careful, you're more likely to be assaulted

I think - on the contrary - those statements and others like them are ones that we all know, we have grown up with, and to a greater or lesser extent internalised. Often unspoken but have been all too prevalent in society and so are very familiar to us.

I think this conversation has been about sharing and examining our own experiences in the light of such appalling attitudes. It’s an important distinction imo.

@7catsandcounting DS(16) showed me a video by a guy explaining this: he likes to follow women around, walk close behind them, at night, just them getting nervous and worriedly looking over their shoulder gives him a “power kick”, he does not think he’s a bad guy as he “does not do anything”, he just enjoys the power to frighten people (women) at will

DS was (he’s trying to understand the issue , as lots of his friends are girls and affected by harassment)

@imalmostthere

There’s been studies where men who’ve raped have told what they look out for in women, among looks that were discussed also factored in was whether a girl looked like she’d fight back. Unfortunately, there are female characteristics they look out for too.

@imalmostthere - that's not what I'm getting at though, though I don't think you're necessarily saying that's what I meant to imply. I guess the whole idea of 'femininity', which i think is what a certain kind of basic bloke goes for, is tied up with the idea of 'prettiness' that some blokes feel they're owed by women, hence their apparent anger at women who have the temerity not to be pretty and therefore presumably a waste of the womanhood they think they have the right to own.

@Fradishes , yes you put well what I was trying to get at. No one's trying to reinforce an idea that harrrasment is about attractiveness (male chauvinists would love that) but it's about reflecting on our experiences and if there's anything we can learn about sexual objectification from it.

“Looking like you’d fight back” can be achieved by doing self defence or martial arts

The simple fact that you have practiced and honed your reflexes (to push back and shout as soon as you are touched, instead of “freezing”) means you’re more likely to fight back (and probably exude this)

Very grateful to my school which gave all Y7 girls a term of self defence classes (I know how to break someone’s nose in one move and have practised on a dummy, also women need to remember to knee/kick the guy in the balls. Knowing any judi/karate or jiujitsu even better)

My fear is that it’s changing. I’m slim and petite with small breasts. The harassment I’ve had has been from absolute dicks which anyone would get. But not much catcalling or similar.

I think breast size to a degree has had influence but I worry if this more resent obsession with bums (surgery, attention in the press etc) will shift that even more.

I had a colleague who was confronted by a man when walking alone at night. She had no martial arts training at all, but did a kind of fake aggressive-looking "kung fu" style posture and went "ahhhhh" - he scarpered!

I do think you definitely get a different type of attention/harassment depending on how you look.

FWIW (and as all of these examples, total anecdata!):

I’m 47 and very overweight. Have been invisible for many years - walking with my DD for the past couple of years has been enlightening as she will be the one drawing stares and attention from men these days since the age of about 11

I recently dyed my dark hair blonde (as it helps disguise the greys better), and for the first time in years I had some guy shout at me from his van at the petrol station a few weeks ago. I presumed it was that my hair now indicates that I want his attention. Fuckwit.

I always think that “those sort of men” don’t like women with short hair or not obviously super feminine - ie long blonde hair - because having short hair is shorthand for “fuck the patriarchy!” Its says “I know you prefer long hair on women and I don’t give a shit, my hair is cut how I like it, not how you like it”.