Do 'boyish'-looking girls get harrassed less than other women?

[Echobelly]

Wanted to ask about a theory of mine, as I've wondered about this before. I don't seem to have experienced anything like as much harrassment or worse than most other women - something I've very glad of. I totally believe it is as bad as other women say it is, btw, but I do wonder if I came in for less grief as I was small, flat chested and, during my teens and 20s, the most 'harrassable' ages i suppose, I had cropped short hair. I think maybe I just didn't register on the radar of the sort of bloke who likes to harrass or grope women so they left me alone.

I'm quite prepared that dozens of similar women will report yes, they were harrassed plenty, just interested to find out people's experiences and I need a largish sample to actually look into this!

I’m tall with short hair in quite a masculine cut. Last time I was harassed I was wearing baggy dungarees. It was 2 teenage boys who followed me calling me a dyke and saying they could “fix” me.

They ran off when my husband arrived.

(Incidentally I am bi, but there’s no way they could have known that)

@Brazilianut - the whole religious or 'moral' 'Women should cover themselves up because they inflame men's desire' thing boils my piss. If you can't control yourself on seeing a woman's knees then cut your balls off you randy git!

My adult daughters are both slim with big boobs, small waists and long hair. Both get harassed a lot. I've seen it happen. I didnt get hassled as much as them as a young adult but I had shortish hair and normal boobs - not sure if it is the different time or area or because of the differences in out looks.
I don't think it's a 'prettyness' issue - I think it's an age,boobs and hair issue.
I'd be curious to know if heavier women get hassled more or less. I'd guess less but who know - maybe someone heavier with big boobs gets hassled a lot.

A lot of men really are bastards aren't they.

@StellaDendrite - I do kind of feel it's about 'age boobs hair', in the sense the kind of guys who harrass and grope are pretty basic and are looking out for 'woman' and 'young', like a kind of pattern recognition.

I'll have to wait and see what happens with DD - she is approaching 13, has a boyish haircut at the mo, but she is already looking like she will develop a much more 'womanly' figure than I ever had.

I think, sadly, that women get harassed whatever they look like- it's just that the form of the harassment differs.

In my younger days I was small breasted and tall- on a depressingly large number of occasions I was informed it was OK as I had 'enough for a handful'. I also regularly had men (that I didn't know and had no wish to get to know) telling me that they wouldn't shag me because I was too flat chested/tall (not their exact words). My smaller, bigger boobed friend was more frequently groped and asked for her number.

My teenage DD has a good friend who has a fairly masculine build and very short hair. She never wears skirts/tight tops etc. Rather depressingly she has recently started getting a lot of male attention when they are out- mainly younger men telling her she'd look OK if she wore different clothing and/or calling her dyke/lesbian etc.

I think some men see lipstick dressed up etc etc and see it as red light to ineptly engage ( or harass). When I was young and slim student I found I got nothing when in student clothes but occasional attention as soon as red lipstick and short skirt were worn... pushing a pram deadens all that nonsense But I noticed how bad it was when walking with a rough looking ( sorry) teen girl down a rough area she got endless comments that annoyingly I couldn't quite hear or understand I was gob smacked how relentless it was poor kid

I have been harassed a lot all my life by men in the street.

I’m Chinese and had waist length hair till I was 30, I’m also very small size wise. Still getting harassed in my late forties, asked out on a date not long before lockdown when I was sitting eating lunch by myself in a little cafe when I am obviously wearing a wedding ring. He just also wouldn’t piss off when I said no and had to be told multiple times. He said at one point I’m sure your husband wouldn’t mind!

There is a really horrid undertone of ooh so exotic and serious research has been undertaken on how a substantial amount of white men have a strong preference for Asian women. All about looks and perceived subservient behaviour.

Do I look younger than I am? most definitely but at some point I will age by about a hundred years rapidly which seems to have happened to all my older female relatives. I will probably end up minuscule, shouty and power walking round the park between forcing home made dumplings on everyone which is what they all do.

I'm ugly (well I think I am anyway).
I'm certainly not attractive in an unconventional way.
I was very geeky when younger but had a good figure and nice hair.
I still got harrassed all the time. Some of it along the lines of "You look like a virgin. I'll pop your cherry for you"
I've had comments on the lines of "You're ugly but I'd do you"

In my mid 30s all this stopped and I am now invisible.

These vile men who harrass women seem to harrass anyone they come across but not above a certain age.
If you're young with slightly larger breasts than others you are definitely a target.
I don't think what you are wearing makes a huge difference.

God this is all so utterly depressing isn’t it?

I was an (conventionally) unattractive shy teen and I feel I still got harassed as much if not more than my peers but in a different way.

I was called fat, fat bum, lard arse, had things thrown at me out of car windows, told to cheer up miserable bitch, stop giving me dirty looks, smile your face won’t crack, etc from about the age of 11.

So I would say I agree that the type of harassment may be different - But that your level of attractiveness or how you present, doesn’t really protect you from misogyny.

I'm not really boyish, but not ultra feminine either.

I got harassed plenty. And men (both strangers and boyfriends) made it abundantly clear that I was a disappointment looks wise. Neither plain nor pretty but somewhere in between.

Seemed to cause a lot of anger and bitterness. 🤷🏻‍♀️

@Brazilianut

My niece is under 5ft, long hair, curvy figure and pretty face. All I can tell you is going out with her is an eye opener to how entitled men feel to say things, follow us, beep and they are so pleased with themselves visibly drooling and smiling.

I am uttering disgusted whenever we go out.

How old is she? And how old does she look? That's a description of me from when I was about 17 and I really started to take on my adult body shape. I used to get a huge amount of attention from random men on the street. It didn't bother me a huge amount at the time but looking back what genuinely creeps me out the most is that between my height and my facial features right up until my mid-20s I genuinely looked more like a young teenager than a young adult. All these creepy men made constant sexual comments towards someone who for all they knew was a child.

It's bad enough that they would do it to an adult woman but if they made comments towards me back then, they were almost certainly making these comments towards any reasonably developed 12-13-14 year olds they saw on the street. What the actual fuck is wrong with them?

It possibly does make a difference. As a fairly plain and unattractive female who dresses very casually I've not had a huge amount of harrasment and the two incidents I can think of were both when I was dressed up out at night..... obviously asking for it.

@SisterAgatha

I was an (conventionally) unattractive shy teen and I feel I still got harassed as much if not more than my peers but in a different way.

I was called fat, fat bum, lard arse, had things thrown at me out of car windows, told to cheer up miserable bitch, stop giving me dirty looks, smile your face won’t crack, etc from about the age of 11.

So I would say I agree that the type of harassment may be different - But that your level of attractiveness or how you present, doesn’t really protect you from misogyny.

I relate to this. Furious anger because I didn't meet their standards. I wasn't worthy of perving on so got aggression instead.

Fucking men. 😤

Seemed to cause a lot of anger and bitterness.

Yes, this is exactly it! I probably could have been an ok looking teen if I’d tried but I was completely unbothered with my appearance as I had a lot going on at the time. The anger from people because I dared to have a fat bum or not smile at them on demand or wear makeup. And even i had worn make up or made an effort to look better - I would still have faced harassment of a different kind.

It’s lose lose really for girls and women.

I’ve moved around a lot, including between countries, and I’ve found the main difference is actually where I am. Certain areas seem to lead to more harassment, for example if I walk at night in a quiet area or an area that’s empty except for building sites I’m very likely to get comments- a playground or park in the day and it’s rare. In very well to do areas I’ve had less comments too, and the harassment varies. In my home country it was more through touch and expressions, here mainly words I find threatening.

My appearance, unless extreme, hasn’t changed the impact as much. I’ve been dressed like a ‘bag lady’ or ‘dyke’ apparently and had offers like ‘hey I’ll still have you’ or ‘let me teach you to be a woman’. If anything as a tall woman in heals I’m more intimidating for many men, on the tube I stand over many and they back off a bit. It seems to scare as much as it invites. I get the most comments when I look vulnerable, or am in a vulnerable place. Girl next door and alone seems to be ‘easy’.

Ikora, will age by about a hundred years rapidly which seems to have happened to all my older female relatives. I will probably end up minuscule, shouty and power walking round the park between forcing home made dumplings on everyone which is what they all do This made me smile.

Yes, there does seem to be a "type" of woman target for every variety of misogynist. I'm not English looking (3rd gen) I am usually mistaken for Iranian or middle Eastern. I get hit on by North Africans, Arabs etc,..who are very pushy. Exotic looking to the English, but strangely less remarkable or noticed. Been told its because I look very pale but definitely middle eastern. So, for me its been almost the opposite of what you describe. And yes to the probable shrinking, wrinkling, and shouting!

Its very bloody depressing. I'm glad I'm aging now, and very lucky to live in a place now that is very arty, liberal, woke and lefty. I feel safer here than anywhere else I've lived.

@7catsandcounting

I'm 5'8 and have always been very overweight, but I'm pretty and very feminine. I used to get called a "fat bitch" in the UK. Regularly. Men would be very cruel. When I moved to Paris, I was followed home by men almost on a daily basis (really), groped, wanked at, shoved into a toilet, flashed and pushed across a bus station at night. My boyfriend used to have to come and pick me up from the metro. It was a five-minute walk home but it was like running a fucking gaunlet. I've always considered myself lucky that it wasn't worse. The toilet incident was a close call. I don't feel particularly traumatised by it. I got used to it. But the idea of it happening to my daughter makes me feel sick. It's just so weird to me. I don't understand the power dynamic. Why do they do it? Does picking up a woman by following her home ever work? Are we ever turned on by random dick pics? What is it all about? I couldn't imagine wanting to sleep with someone who didn't want to sleep with me. When people say it's about power, I find it really hard to understand. I don't think I can imagine what that need or feeling is. I'd be interested to learn more, but I'm worried I'd just feel hopeless. It does feel like it's too late to change this. I really believe porn is what's driving it. Back in the 90s, Iads used to pass around a PlayBoy. Anyone can now watch a woman being choked and spat on on their phone. For free. I think it's too late.

Never, ever has a post resonated with me do much.

I don’t share your experiences of harassment - I haven’t been been subjected to anything like that type of hampering an attempt to just live, but the latter part of your post, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.

I am truly terrified for my daughter. I am convinced male violence is increasing year on year, and that it’s not just that we know more about it or people are less likely to put up with it.
I think we’ve opened the lid on Pandora’s box. Any slimeball who, in times past would not have been able to feed his depravity, now can. Any creep who would have had to keep it all in a tightly closed box inside their own dark head, can now have it normalised and acted on, through online porn.

Don’t even get me started into how women have been brainwashed into thinking that sex that doesn’t involve being choked or whatever is “vanilla” effectively we’ve been scammed.

Scammed isn’t the word I’m looking for but can’t think of the word .. haven’t had my coffee yet.

I’m sure there’s a sweet spot between “attractive” (getting catcalls, followed home and rape threats) and “unattractive” (getting “lesbian!” shouts, fat-shaming, and intimidation for Existing In Public Whilst Ugly).

I have no idea what it is though. I feel like trying to work out how to be invisible to men is like reading the tea-leaves. What makes one man shout at you and another man ignore you is going to vary so much from man to man that there’s no point in twisting yourself into a pretzel to avoid it.

I had long blonde hair as a teen - definitely attracted whistles etc

I'm tallish and have a bit of a resting bitch face - I was surprised when there were threads on here about workmen coming to the house talking down to you, never happened to me that I can think of but DH worked away so it was always me dealing with people.
(I'm old and grumpy now but do recognise the 'friendly smile' when dealing with people as mentioned above)

I remember taking DD out for driving lessons when she had v long blonde hair and would have been 17, male drivers stopping to give way - WTF and dangerous imv.

I just don’t think it’s as simple a premise. I can tell you my experience.
I am (was) attractive, small, hourglass figure. The times I have been harassed I would never connect it to me - it was not about my clothes or figure or my personhood.
it was dicks who wanted to intimidate, grope, objectivify.

The most street abuse I got was when I was pregnant and men felt the need to comment on my size. That was not sexual but about power/humiliation, when I was vulnerable . Such a gross attitude.

Harassment stems from the gross attitude of the perpetrators.

I was harassed at work, I had shortish hair, but I was curvy. The assistant manager asked the girls to do some cleaning whilst he supervised. He said watching us bend over to wipe the bottom shelves was the best job ever, and gave us a reward slap on the bum. I was 16, my parents hadn't really said anything about this behaviour, I had a very sheltered life before this job and I should of gone to the manager. I didn't even consider it or telling my parents, but I think this was more as he was black and I didn't want people to think I was making up something racist ( as I am white) in a predominantly white company. Generally the assistant manager was a nice funny guy and he was young like us. I didn't really know the other girls as I was relatively new and this was a fast food restaurant, so lots of different staff, different shifts and large turnover. Except for the managers who apart from this guy were older 40+.

But generally out in pubs it was assumed I was a lesbian due to the cropped hair, flares and trainers and no I wasn't harassed . I think generally it's more common for black women to have short hair so maybe it doesn't signal ridiculously that you're not interested in certain cultures. It's very sad, this is why people get caught up in the trans situation as things are so stereotypical on looks. I adored Natalie Embruglia growing up.

Am I the only one who thinks this is in poor taste? All women are at risk of harassment, no matter their appearance.
I don't think I'm overly attractive, I'm equally not unattractive- but there are a lot better out there than me!
Yet I've been stalked, harassed, groped, had unsolicited pics sent, had my vagina grabbed in a night club when a man shoved his hand up my dress and into my knickers, and been raped.
There are a lot prettier women out there that by your post would be more "obvious targets". It's not about that. It's about power, coercion and control.
I really think this is a horrible post actually.

*sorry should have 🤨 I know the grammar police will be onto me for should of