Census I don't belong.

[Devlesko]

I'm equally sadened and angered.
Every other ethnicity covered as far as I know, all other travelling groups rightly so. Roma who are here from Eastern Europe.

We have been told by campaigners to stand up and be counted so that we can access healthcare and schools.
Now we are white other, not a mention.

It's not just semantics we are all different ethnicities with separate cultures, the only similarity is we travel, or try to. Our DNA is distinctive to our ethnicity Irish and Romany are completely different.

What is a gypsy? What ethnicity? It doesn't exist. But more recently those who are interested and thank you, know that Romany originate from India, around 1,500 years ago and have been in the UK for 500 years.
During which time we have been enslaved, tortured, murdered, transported, hated by society and persecuted by Kings and Governments.

I'm sick of the back door laws to erode if not annilate our culture. It just isn't fair. Society tars us all with the same brush, but you can ask any health visitor who has ever visited how family orientated we are and spotlessley clean.

Gypsy is a slur for American Romany and Europeans. But it's that bad in the UK where we face racism daily that it's hardly worth fighting the use of the word "gypsy"

I'm writing this because I know whilst theres a few on here with Romany links, Mumsnet is a new audience and apart from me very few would venture. That is nothing personal, just a different culture.

So when you see us being refused service in a pub, restaurant, wedding reception venue, don't spit at us, laugh, call us names, we are human.

I agree it may be hard to get planning permission. But some travellers bought a site near us (so they owned the land). They applied on a 3 acre field for four statics, two travelling caravans, parking for work vehicles and a central home area with showers, loos and a central area for rest and recreation. No one else would have got permission. They argued their children needed a settled area to go to school and they had a few disabled parents. It turned out they had a father with a big house 30 miles away, and they themselves had another establishment in Surrey. So yes, they were turned down. Then the two brothers applying went to prison for GBH elsewhere and were connected to the traveller family who are now serving time for slavery.

@Devlesko
The misogynistic business about women with periods is common in most faiths. Orthodox Jews, some Christians and Moslems etc. And interestingly their attitudes to dogs as unhealthy.

How would anyone working in a shop ot restaurant know someone is a Romany Gypsy?

I don't know how English, but I can usually spot a Roma because of where I gree up. Don't even often need to hear the language.

Similarly, you can often indentify Polish or Russian or German or Italian or anyone else by facial features. English abroad are usually identified by lack of tshirts and certain red skin shade (just joking 😂 sorry, couldn't resist), nah seriously, even English cound be identified by certain features.

It's not just skin colour which differentiate people. Cheek bones, eye shape, jaws etc. It's actually really interesting to observe sometimes

English abroad are usually identified by certain red skin shade

Guilty as charged

I don't know how English, but I can usually spot a Roma because of where I gree up. Don't even often need to hear the language

Yes same here, but I'm m asking how would an english English Romany Gypsy be identifiable? Maybe some are still quite dark but centuries of mixing with locals means they are not so easy to notice. Also many English heritage people have dark complexions anyway. Also accents are the same and so on.

My family are dark but its not particularly noticable as not being of a typical English ancestral heritage and especially nowadays when many English people have some mixed heritage anyway. I don't understand how a shopkeeper or restaurant worker would know or even care.

I'm being specific about English Romany Gypsies here because thats what the topic is about

I'm very dark, but haven't always been, used to be snow white complection, my dd is the same. Always tanned easy, but maybe as getting older and thinner skin it's darker.
I change 3 colours of foundation throughout the year.
My hair was very dark and is a mass of curls down to my waist, I like many of my line are very small.
Over the past 10 years or so I've been asked where I come from and people have suggested Eastern Europe, maybe because we have more Roma than ever. When younger have had guesses of Spanish, Italian, Porugese, in fact whilst working in Portugal I was often mistaken for a native.
That may support the facial structure theory.

But many English heritage people can be Mediterranean looking as well. Some Mediterranean people are fair. I have Greek friends who are not dark. Quite pale really.

How would anyone would know someone was an English Romany Gypsy just by meeting them briefly.

How about you stop acting like a gadzi🙄 Roma and Romani (that's how it's spelled btw) are the same. The only difference are the countries they're from. You have for example: Spanish Roma, Polish Roma, Russian Roma and so on. I'm a Roma btw so don't come at me for acting "racist"

When you stay "stop at the side of the road" so you mean just pull over alongside the road and stay there? Isn't that dangerous?

The census form can’t have boxes for everyone, it’s just not practical. If you can’t find a box that suits, write in the other box.

I don’t know that you’re helping yourself either claiming there are no Roma in the UK, Irish travellers can go live in Ireland etc. Many people (both Roma and not) consider Roma and Romany to be the same thing. You may not agree but not everyone will agree all the time about everything.

I agree. I had to type ‘Irish’ into the nationality box. You’d think they’d have that one covered after 800 years.

Just tick other. Done. Thank you. I suspect a box on the census is not the true cause of your anger op!

Totally agree. Not true.

Irish travellers have their own dialect (pidgeon English). You seem quite to have a bit of an issue with them.

Some of your statements are pretty sweeping and prejudiced about other human beings in general to be honest.

Maybe the people who recognise your heritage from your face happen to live along the routes traditionally travelled by Romany/Romani(?) So they've seen them repeatedly over the years?

I don't think I've ever met any English travelling Romany people- I'm pretty certain I couldn't pick one out of a line-up.

@Bengeskry

How about you stop acting like a gadzi🙄 Roma and Romani (that's how it's spelled btw) are the same. The only difference are the countries they're from. You have for example: Spanish Roma, Polish Roma, Russian Roma and so on. I'm a Roma btw so don't come at me for acting "racist"

Romany is the way we have always spelt it in the UK. But we use it when called for with Eastern European and Americans. Yes, Romany/ Romani have more in common than any other travellers genetically and culturally and would normally agree with the only difference being their country of origin. However, we have far more in common with Irish travellers ito services we require as opposed to what Roma in the UK need. I have discussed this up thread as to the differnces. So many of us believe that when counted we need to be a separate category because of this alone.

I have nothing against Irish travellers, I fight their corner the same as I do Romany, we all experience the same hatred and racism, Irish travellers disproportionately.

Yes, Irish travellers have their own language, separate from Irish.
The Romany language has been watered down since we arrived here and traveeling picking up different accents and colloquilalisms has turned into pidgeon English with a bit of Romany thrown in.
I would hardly be mentioning Romany language if I'd meant Irish travellers.

@Devlesko

Why shouldn't you be able to stop at the side of the road, how is it harming anyone. Why is it being criminalised? Why eradicate a races culture? Why lose it? I don't understand your point tbh. What do you want to know about our culture? Travelling and not travelling is what we do for various reasons, we are individuals the same as the rest of society. Everyone who lives in a house isn't the same.

Because, most of the people who stop at the side of the road leave their dirt there. Because stopping at the side of the road is a driving hazard. I would love to just rock up in my van, cut locks to invade a property, spend weeks there, shit in kids sandpits and then fuck off and leave the tax payers to deal with it. But I don't because I am a responsible, tax paying member of society.

No offence to you Develsko, but I’ve always found this statement “travelling is in our blood,” as if it’s some mystical urge you are born with, a bit nonsensical, really. Surely, your blood is the same as anyone else’s? It a depressing view on life if we believe people are born predisposed to particular ways of life. Clearly they are not. If we believe everyone is born equal, then nobody’s life has to follow a certain template. There’s nothing innate or wondrously magical about trundling round the country in circles, polishing naff ornaments. Yes, its a “way of life,” but it’s most definitely a choice. As is any other way of life.

My family mostly picked olives for generations. Should I go all mystic and proclaim this is “in my blood?” Should that be my template for life? No. I just buy my olives in M&S and be done with it. I don’t believe people have innate urges to live life according to their ancestors’ traditions. Imagine the state of the world if we were all doing that!

The only choice is if you want to keep your culture, and I want to keep mine.
I'm not saying that house dwellers lose their culture, but for us it was important to continue travelling and for me to keep my culture.
There's no mysticism involved, and no naff ornaments, thank you
Travellers believe it is in their blood, I don't know how to reply to this.

OrraBorralis

Do most people leave a mess at the side of the road? Well they are pigs.
The fact you'd love to rock up in a van and make a mess, says more about you, tbh.
I'd hate to do something like that, it's disgusting.

@inthecathouse as a Jew, I believe that I shouldn't work on friday evenings and saturdays, as centuries of Jews have done before, or on jewish holidays like yom kippur and rosh hashanah. Indeed it is enshrined in the equality act that employers must do all that is possible to accommodate our religious requirements, even if it means allowing us to leave at 3 pm on Friday and starting earlier to make up the hours; working at home on Fridays. I personally don't need to leave early on Fridays but do require a lot of days off in september (due to jewish holidays being quite close together).

In the past, a lot of Jews could not earn a living as they were often fired on friday for refusing to work. Its different now thankfully, though of course office jobs are better for observant Jews which may be why Jews tend to push their children towards professional vocations.

A lot of atheists would say that this is ridiculous because god doesn't exist etc, why should employers be penalized due to our personal religious beliefs etc etc. However, a Jew's right to keep the sabbath is recognized as a protected religious characteristics just like gender, disability etc. Why should a Roma's right to live their traditional lifestyle be any different.

I’ve always found this statement “travelling is in our blood,” as if it’s some mystical urge you are born with, a bit nonsensical, really

I agree with this and I have Romany in my family tree

The Romany first came to England at least 500 years ago, and compared to many other European countries managed to fully or partially integrate successfully.

The ideas we have now about the English Romany are based on heavily romanticised Victorian ideas of what rural life was like. This includes non Romany too. People moving into grey grim industrial towns and cities became very sentimental about the countryside they had left behind and so tended to idealise it.

The truth is that rural life of an agricultural labourer could also be very hard, for the Romany and non Romany alike (who also often lived an itinerant lifestyle), following farm work, lodging in barns and tiny mud floored cottages. The painted Romany wagons we see now for example are a recent invention. They didn't exist in this form until the late 19th century. The culture was not much different to an everyday agricultural labourer

The culture was definitely different, although yes, some Romany did work alongside non Romany, we still do today, and cover most occupations going. The same as the rest of society, and has nothing to do with keeping your culture.
There are different levels of following the culture just as there are for all cultures and religions.
Take Christianity, some people go to Church, some send kids to Sunday school etc. Some prefer a quiet prayer on Sunday and observe the Sabbath day, others don't.
We weren't all agricultural workers by any means. Mine were Musicians, storytellers, and forune tellers.
I was a hard life, and not the romantic life you seem to think that British Romany believe.

I was a hard life, and not the romantic life you seem to think that British Romany believe.

But it was a hard life for everyone back then, that is my point, and as time goes by, understandably, we all tend to idealise the past and paint it with roses. For example the chocolate box old paintings we see of countryside thatched cottages, surrounded by flowery gardens, are not the reality of how a Victorian agricultural labourer and his family lived

Cultural practices, lifestyles, even languages, are reformed into our modern idea of what it must have been like. Of how we would like to think it was

All seems like a bit dramatic overreaction if I'm honest.

Bengeskry
How about you stop acting like a gadzi🙄 Roma and Romani (that's how it's spelled btw) are the same. The only difference are the countries they're from. You have for example: Spanish Roma, Polish Roma, Russian Roma and so on. I'm a Roma btw so don't come at me for acting "racist"

How about you stop being so rude to the OP, who btw is absolutely correct when saying that "Romany" has always been the English way of spelling it

There are differences. Some countries successfully managed to integrate, or partially integrate, the original Roma migrants. Others had extremely punitive laws and so more separation. Over time this meant different cultural expressions. In a more tolerant country, a willingness to take on or adapt to local traditions and vice versa. In a less tolerant country, an understandable keeping separate communities, with less integration and mixed marriage and so on.