Census I don't belong.

[Devlesko]

I'm equally sadened and angered.
Every other ethnicity covered as far as I know, all other travelling groups rightly so. Roma who are here from Eastern Europe.

We have been told by campaigners to stand up and be counted so that we can access healthcare and schools.
Now we are white other, not a mention.

It's not just semantics we are all different ethnicities with separate cultures, the only similarity is we travel, or try to. Our DNA is distinctive to our ethnicity Irish and Romany are completely different.

What is a gypsy? What ethnicity? It doesn't exist. But more recently those who are interested and thank you, know that Romany originate from India, around 1,500 years ago and have been in the UK for 500 years.
During which time we have been enslaved, tortured, murdered, transported, hated by society and persecuted by Kings and Governments.

I'm sick of the back door laws to erode if not annilate our culture. It just isn't fair. Society tars us all with the same brush, but you can ask any health visitor who has ever visited how family orientated we are and spotlessley clean.

Gypsy is a slur for American Romany and Europeans. But it's that bad in the UK where we face racism daily that it's hardly worth fighting the use of the word "gypsy"

I'm writing this because I know whilst theres a few on here with Romany links, Mumsnet is a new audience and apart from me very few would venture. That is nothing personal, just a different culture.

So when you see us being refused service in a pub, restaurant, wedding reception venue, don't spit at us, laugh, call us names, we are human.

Why should we have to stay on a holiday site when there is space at the roadside, looking at lovely countryside.

Well that’s what it comes down to for me...

As I mentioned above, the amount of space is increasingly limited, and the number of people potentially wanting to use it has increased.

Population increase, and urbanisation.

That is leaving aside the issue of mess... but you’ve seen the mess yourself @Devlesko, even if you didn’t create it. The mess has greatly increased (I think) by our modern society - excess plastic packaging everywhere, more fast outgrown consumer goods than ever.

There are plenty of people using these roadside encampments that are not Irish Travellers or Romany Gypsies. Are you proposing that you have a “cultural heritage protection document” to show the police or local council? That you can stay, but no-one else can?

I do not think we can just allow freedom to park where you want.

I do believe that a fascinating British culture should be preserved, which means:

• supporting permanent council sites
• supporting temporary council sites
• sympathetic private planning site applications

But that still won’t cover everywhere that you want to stop. And for that - just to pay to stay on a holiday site like everyone else. Many of which have amazing views of the countryside, by the way.

I'm sure they do for people on holiday, but I'm not talking about a holiday.
It can take me up to a week to get across or down country, we take our time, just like nomads do.
There is no law currently that says anyone can't stop at the side of the road, this is what will change.
Trying to fit in timing to get on a site pre and post work will be difficult for us, most of the time we wouldn't be allowed on sites after midnight when we are finished.
We've managed ok until now, although it's been getting increasingly difficult, but I don't know how we'll continue when our venues open up again.
I don't agree about paying to stay on sites at all, we aren't welcome for a start.
The caravan club refuse travellers membership.
Would you want to stay somewhere where you didn't feel safe or where you received racial abuse?
Being a nomad shouldn't be a crime, and yes, nomads do stop from time to time. They also are known to one area, make their living from that area and tend to come back to the same area for a base.

@oakleaffy

All I know of Roma is that Hitler had it in for Roma as well as disabled and gay people and of course Jews. My son in Eastern Europe bought a colourful horses bridle from Roma people.. they were riding their horses up and down- the sort of bridle that would make Pony Club bleach as decorated with red and blue. No common language but nods and written numbers. 💕

Black and mixed race people as well, do not forget.

Op sorry to read that you have been overlooked in the census.

Thank you very much.
Even though threads about travellers don't go well, I don't give up, because it's important to get the word out.
If one person says it makes them think then that is worth so much, and we had one on here.
As usual though it's like swiss cheese with deletions.
Thanks again for your lovely words.

If you are travelling for up to 6 weeks at a time, unless it is the summer holidays, are you not knowlingly taking your children out of school and what exactly to you expect the schools to do?

This isn't what happens.
Those that are able to keep their children in school as they have a permanant place on a site / live in a house can only take children out during school holidays, like everyone else.
If you haven't got a permanant place on a site, and have to move, then of course the children have to move schools.
Some that have to move find it easier to opt for H.ed because they aren't learning anything having to constantly move.
Mine had a mix of H.ed and school, dependant on the individual child and where we were at the time.

Why should we have to stay on a holiday site when there is space at the roadside, looking at lovely countryside

Because its illegal to stay at the roadside. You can't stay there, neither can I. You're treated the same as I am.

I have had daily dealings with travellers in the past and off the back of my personal experiences would definitely object to a site near me too.
Sorry.
The anti social behaviour is just too much.
Your way of life is soul destroying for others.
I was sympathetic at first. That soon wore thin when I saw the massive impact.

It isn't illegal, it's what I've been doing my whole adult life.
It shouldn't be illegal as there's a right to roam.
This is what I'm objecting to. Our way of life is going to be criminalised.

With respect Sillyduckseverywhere you are racist. Just like all the others who object.
Should you not be allowed to live in your home because someone down the road makes a mess. Come on, leave, you are a mennace, people like you.
Can you see how ridiculous that sounds.

No. I'm not racist. I worked in the middle of a camp. Not by choice.
At first it went well. We got on with it, decided that all the tales were bullshit and these were good people. Everyone rubbed along nicely, we even used to buy the kiddies sweets.
It went massively downhill after that.
And was unbearable within weeks.
My personal experiences are not racism.
I don't appreciate you calling me that.
How would you improve relations? Trust me, screaming racist does nothing.

AnaisNun
@AWhisperWillDoIfThatsAllYouCan
Um
Most Black Caribbean people are descended from slaves who were taken from Africa between the 1500s and 1800s

Descended from Africans kidnapped from their homelands, and enslaved.

African Caribbean or Diaspora African will do.

Not really to do with this post tho is it

I only call racism when I see/ hear it.
Objecting to the provision of accomodation for a race based on "They leave a mess" is racist.
I understand objections of mess, governments should be looking at this, not criminalising the way of life for at least two races.
Lock them up, fine them, community service etc. Lot's of roads (pardon the pun) to go down before social engineering and ethnic cleansing.
"Not wanted here" is an experience all too often found with travellers, it needs to stop.
No form of racism should ever be acceptable.

Not what I said
That's quite a leap to "ethnic cleansing"
Anyway, crack on. You've done nothing but reinforce my experiences shrug

You haven't yet told us why your "race" should be provided specialist accomodations when other races are not. Mine isn't. Is that racism?

@Sillyduckseverywhere

Not what I said That's quite a leap to "ethnic cleansing" Anyway, crack on. You've done nothing but reinforce my experiences shrug

I didn't say your personal experiences are racist, I sympathise and agree with you, some people are disgusting. But to object to the provision of camps because of your experience is racist. You may have experienced anti social behaviour, but can you honestly not see that applying this to all travellers is racist? My way of life is soul destroying to others? Your way of life could be soul destroying to me, does that make you a criminal? Tarring all travellers with the same brush is racist, whether you see this is not is up to you. What would you call it, if not ethnic cleansing? This has been in the planning for a long time.

@jellybellybanana

You haven't yet told us why your "race" should be provided specialist accomodations when other races are not. Mine isn't. Is that racism?

What specialist accomodation are you talking about? Sites are not specialist at all, and much cheaper than council houses to build and maintain. If your race are denied access to certain basic requirements then yes, it's racism. If governments are making your culture a crime, yes, this is racism. You are obviously happy living the way you do and not experiencing racism through government and society. I hope this answers your question.

Why do people dislike Roma/ Romany so much? When i read the thread, the stuff that is said about them would be unacceptable if said about any other culture.

@onlychildandhamster

Why do people dislike Roma/ Romany so much? When i read the thread, the stuff that is said about them would be unacceptable if said about any other culture.

I didn't until I experienced the behaviour of different groups day in, day out. I actually approached it as a way to experience different culture. It was exciting. It soon got old when the mess and anti social behaviour started up. This was SEVERAL groups. Not one group.

And to answer this point:
My way of life is soul destroying to others?
Your way of life could be soul destroying to me, does that make you a criminal?

I have never imposed myself on others.
EVER
I have never intimidated strangers for no reason. I've never littered, I've never beaten someone in the street, I've never thrown human excrement onto someone else's land, I've never entered a building to strip the wiring, then burnt it to release toxic fumes into the sky to get the copper, I've never tapped into a private water supply, I've never allowed my animals to suffer from fleas, I've never allowed my children to cause a nuisance in local businesses, I've never stolen from local businesses, I've never trespassed on private land (apart from unwittingly) I've never flytipped controlled waste that meant a local beaty spot had to be closed due to asbestos contamination etc. Etc.
This was all over the space of one summer.
It was a living hell so excuse me if I'm unsympathetic to your cause.
It's not for me to accept this behaviour because "racist"

I won't be commenting on this again.
It gets me so angry.
I HONESTLY thought travellers were misunderstood.
I was proved wrong. I stand by what I said.
I would like to see criminalisation. I would 100% object to a site nearby.

@Sillyduckseverywhere

I won't be commenting on this again. It gets me so angry. I HONESTLY thought travellers were misunderstood. I was proved wrong. I stand by what I said. I would like to see criminalisation. I would 100% object to a site nearby.

I'm so sorry you have only experienced the bad. However, that does not make the whole traveller races criminals. The things you list you have never done, neither have I or my family or every Romany person I know. Don't you think the answer are law changes to make those responsible be punished, heavy fines and maybe having to shovel other peoples shit should do it. The travelling communities aren't responsible for these people, the same as you aren't responsible for all people who live in houses.

@onlychildandhamster

Why do people dislike Roma/ Romany so much? When i read the thread, the stuff that is said about them would be unacceptable if said about any other culture.

It's said to be the last accepted form of racism. We are still refused service in entertainment venues and restaurants. Those signs of the 60's No Black, Irish, Travellers etc really does still apply to us. The bouncers who ask for signed photo's with Tyson Fury, to laughingly joke with him that he can't come in. He jokes about it himself, but for many of us it's no joking matter. Then, to not be recognised as a race and ethnicity is just soul destroying. "Gypsy" isn't a race and I know when we start to complain, obviously can't protest, that powers that be will just say, you're gypsy, that isn't a race. We are worried, and catching up with fb groups unfortunately see how many completed the census. Any trust there was has gone, I'm not sure if this general apathy? will wear off, it will be interesting to see, but sounds like any fight has gone. I feel so sad. Thank you very much to those who keep an open mind, and huge thanks to those who support us and see our fears and understand.

It's said to be the last accepted form of racism.
We are still refused service in entertainment venues and restaurants

How would anyone working in a shop ot restaurant know someone is a Romany Gypsy?

Romany have been in England, and later Wales, for centuries. They intermariied with other rural people. There was not much difference in culture between everyday agricultural labourers and the Romany. Many of the cultural practices mentioned were also the cultural practices of the non' Romany. Itinerant labour, unofficial rural marriages, living in wagons, hawking, peg making, scrap metal collection, have all been done by the wider population. Living in vardos (wagons) is a relatively recent thing (late 19th century). Infact most people with Romany Gypsy heritage did not, and still do not, live an itinerant lifestyle and many of those settled into housing did so during industrialisation

Academically on observation all I can say is gait. Obviously with Irish Travellers it could be their accent. We do have a language but it's a sort of pidgeon English with Romany words thrown in, very diluted from the original, but still used.
It seems the obvious answer to me.
Apparentely people can tell straight away, I don't know how.
We dress pretty much the same as everyone else.
Could we be holding ourselves differently to others, I don't know.

It's very hard to buy land/ planning permission.
Some councillors object to a site in their town and whip up local objection

Maybe they are often trying to get planning for areas where its not appropriate. Its perfectly normal for nimbys to object to planning for all sort of reasons. Trying more appropriate locations would be more successful. I mean caravan parks do manage to get planning, its not impossible.

Rights have to be balanced with responsibilities. The right to roam around legal appropriate sites is a good compromise and fair.