Census I don't belong.

[Devlesko]

I'm equally sadened and angered.
Every other ethnicity covered as far as I know, all other travelling groups rightly so. Roma who are here from Eastern Europe.

We have been told by campaigners to stand up and be counted so that we can access healthcare and schools.
Now we are white other, not a mention.

It's not just semantics we are all different ethnicities with separate cultures, the only similarity is we travel, or try to. Our DNA is distinctive to our ethnicity Irish and Romany are completely different.

What is a gypsy? What ethnicity? It doesn't exist. But more recently those who are interested and thank you, know that Romany originate from India, around 1,500 years ago and have been in the UK for 500 years.
During which time we have been enslaved, tortured, murdered, transported, hated by society and persecuted by Kings and Governments.

I'm sick of the back door laws to erode if not annilate our culture. It just isn't fair. Society tars us all with the same brush, but you can ask any health visitor who has ever visited how family orientated we are and spotlessley clean.

Gypsy is a slur for American Romany and Europeans. But it's that bad in the UK where we face racism daily that it's hardly worth fighting the use of the word "gypsy"

I'm writing this because I know whilst theres a few on here with Romany links, Mumsnet is a new audience and apart from me very few would venture. That is nothing personal, just a different culture.

So when you see us being refused service in a pub, restaurant, wedding reception venue, don't spit at us, laugh, call us names, we are human.

@peak2021 I don’t think OP is saying that Roma and Irish Travellers are being lumped together. She’s saying it’s Roma and Romany who are together - but are not the same?

Is that right @Devlesko?

Because I didn’t know that, and I’m Googling (trying to find traveller websites not to just continue incorrect info) and they are using Roma and Romany interchangeably - and giving Northern India as originating place for both.

How big is the Romany community in the U.K. vs Roma? That to me would be the deciding factor on a separate census designation when Other is available.

@peak2021

Roma people are very different from Irish travellers. Thank you OP for this thread. Roma people were also one of the groups of people singled out by the Nazis.

Don't confuse them No, Romany were also singled out. The whole of the middle class was wiped out. Yes, there was a middle class. I've seen some colourised photo's of their grand houses and fineries.

Perhaps if enough people put it in the free format, it will be an option in future surveys and the next census?

How big is the Romany community in the U.K. vs Roma? That to me would be the deciding factor on a separate census designation when Other is available

Well if you add Irish travellers, Roma, Romany and those calling themselves Gypsies, its still less than 0.1 per cent of the UK.
Tiny minorities.
Much much larger minorities have to tick Other.

@FullofCurryandparatha

How big is the Romany community in the U.K. vs Roma? That to me would be the deciding factor on a separate census designation when Other is available

Well if you add Irish travellers, Roma, Romany and those calling themselves Gypsies, its still less than 0.1 per cent of the UK.
Tiny minorities.
Much much larger minorities have to tick Other.

Exactly. Don't take it so personally! My husband had to search under "other" and he wasn't offended because he recognises that he's part of minority group.

@Devlesko
I really don't mean to be in anyway goady or offensive just probably very uninformed.
The only travellers (hope correct term) I have ever knowingly come into contact with has been at the travelling funfairs, whom you wouldn't be able to point out as different from any other person walking down the street is there something about the way roma dress or accent that marks you as roma that people use to target you or is it more of a case of when you arrive in an area word gets around and all the nimbys come out in force?
I'm honestly asking because I've thankfully never come across any of what you've described (which is awful) and I don't know if it's because I've been blinkered or just sheltered in my small corner of Scotland

I understand you OP. I have Roma friends, Romany friends and Traveller friends. I also
know some showman families- I was married to a Bargee Traveller and used to do a lot of work with GRT people.

I also understand why this hurts particularly at the moment as the new policing bill doesn’t just discriminate against GRT people but seeks to criminalise your way of life.

Here if you need an ear away from the bigoted fuckers that are sometimes on here

How are Roma and Romany different OP? Don't Roma/Romany all originate from India? You're going to need to educate people because apart from Balaur I'd guess most people are as clueless as me about this.

Oh crap @Devlesko sorry I've just seen your update that roma and romany are different so I clearly know even less than I thought I did

@Iamagenius

I used other to put my children as English, Latino, American and Western European. You could just do that. If you don't fit one box use the other to define yourself

Good idea, job done, stop whinging op

I think I'm being very thick. What is it you need from the census in order to have your needs met?

The census doesnt entitle you to medical care, schools, working rights, benefits etc. What rights will you get from the census that you dont currently have?

All those needs are met through other forms.

The census keeps track of population changes. It is important, and they should have included a separate Romany option. The options were chosen in consultation with many different groups. They're never going to get everyone, they're never going to please everyone. Especially when you are a small percentage of an already small percentage of travelling communities in the UK.

Write yours in. You will be counted.

What about Sinti? Aren't there any in the UK or do they call themselves differently?

@Tal45

You do understand that’s like saying to a Black Caribbean person “but how are Black African and Black Caribbean different?”

I despair.

Although, I really dont know the different between Roma and Romany/Romani. Everything I've ever read has used the terms interchangeably, including books and website written by the Romany/Roma.

You probably are fed up of being asked, but could you link to something which explains the difference in heritage?

@AWhisperWillDoIfThatsAllYouCan

I think I'm being very thick. What is it you need from the census in order to have your needs met?

The census doesnt entitle you to medical care, schools, working rights, benefits etc. What rights will you get from the census that you dont currently have?

All those needs are met through other forms.

The census keeps track of population changes. It is important, and they should have included a separate Romany option. The options were chosen in consultation with many different groups. They're never going to get everyone, they're never going to please everyone. Especially when you are a small percentage of an already small percentage of travelling communities in the UK.

Write yours in. You will be counted.

That's not the point, everyone identifies as something through their ethnicity and culture and race. We are Romany and have our own identity separate from other groups, just the same as everyone other race.
It's a shame more of society isn't aware of this.

@AnaisNun

No it isnt. Black African are of african descent. Black Caribbean are of Caribbean descent.

Roma/Romany/Romani are used by the same group, and about the same group, of people who have Indian heritage. That's what everything online says, and what every book I've ever read on the subject says. The OP is saying they are entirely different ethnicities, which is something a lot of people are finding confusing, so people have asked for help in understanding.

Is it because ‘Roma’ are ethnically different to other Romanians, whereas ‘Romany’ are ethnically Irish?

I am always ticking "other" on all these types of things. I have never thought anything about it. And no "every other ethnicity" isn't covered.

@Devlesko

Write it in. The travelling community makes up a tiny percentage in the UK. Breaking it down into smaller groups again makes those group an even smaller percentage. With so many small groups, the forms are never going to manage to get every choice. Its especially confusing because, as said already, as far as everything most people have ever seen, Roma/Romani/Romany have the same heritage.

If that is wrong, then reference books and websites are full of inaccuracies.

Write yours in.

@AWhisperWillDoIfThatsAllYouCan

I don’t want to speak for the OP, but this week the new policing bill is basically criminalising a nomadic way of life.

Couple that with Romany being not included on the census and at best it looks like a govt who doesn’t understood a whole and significant section of the population. At worst it might feel to a Romany person that they are being systematically edged out (or worse) by the state.

It’s an alarming warning bell that many many people will overlook or discount because of their own prejudices against GRT communities.

I’m watching and worried though. And I know lots of other good people are too.

But not all groups can be listed, I assume they list the majority ones.

I'm completely baffled by the whole thing but it did make me wonder what do travellers do with regards to their address on the census form?

@AWhisperWillDoIfThatsAllYouCan

Um

Most Black Caribbean people are descended from slaves who were taken from Africa between the 1500s and 1800s

I think the right to bear arms is just as important as official recognition of your cultural and ethnic identity. You should be able to type it in though, I'm a real mix and was able to.

I've read quite a bit about the Romany people and understood that they are ethnically the same as Roma - originating from Northern India. Is this not the case? The books and articles I've read (many by Roma/Romany authors) use the two words interchangeably