Census I don't belong.

[Devlesko]

I'm equally sadened and angered.
Every other ethnicity covered as far as I know, all other travelling groups rightly so. Roma who are here from Eastern Europe.

We have been told by campaigners to stand up and be counted so that we can access healthcare and schools.
Now we are white other, not a mention.

It's not just semantics we are all different ethnicities with separate cultures, the only similarity is we travel, or try to. Our DNA is distinctive to our ethnicity Irish and Romany are completely different.

What is a gypsy? What ethnicity? It doesn't exist. But more recently those who are interested and thank you, know that Romany originate from India, around 1,500 years ago and have been in the UK for 500 years.
During which time we have been enslaved, tortured, murdered, transported, hated by society and persecuted by Kings and Governments.

I'm sick of the back door laws to erode if not annilate our culture. It just isn't fair. Society tars us all with the same brush, but you can ask any health visitor who has ever visited how family orientated we are and spotlessley clean.

Gypsy is a slur for American Romany and Europeans. But it's that bad in the UK where we face racism daily that it's hardly worth fighting the use of the word "gypsy"

I'm writing this because I know whilst theres a few on here with Romany links, Mumsnet is a new audience and apart from me very few would venture. That is nothing personal, just a different culture.

So when you see us being refused service in a pub, restaurant, wedding reception venue, don't spit at us, laugh, call us names, we are human.

It's not cultural requirements that is stopping us from accessing services, it's not being given long tenancies on council sites and the shortage of provision.
This would enable travellers to register with gp, attend school, etc.
You are supposed to be able to travel from the site, and they keep the place open for you, as long as you are continiuing to pay council tax, household bills, utilities etc. But they all too often give it to someone else.
You come back to what you think is home, but you've lost your place and told to apply for refunds for services not used.

I did state long back in the thread that a category on the census would give the right message, that we are recognised as a race, which we are.
I also said that usually there is no problem lumping us all together, but surely at national level anyone can see that Roma and Romany are distinctly different ito support needed to access services.

Finally, it's nothing to do with evolving, Christ knows we have evolved more than any other race in the western world, it was a case of having to, not choosing to.

Would you tell any other race to move with the times, and I'm sure you think your putting your childrens needs first, just as we do.
I don't think either would agree that the others philosophy is good enough, for the children being different races.

What’s more important?

One Romany family with a permanent council site pitch being allowed to leave that pitch vacant for an extended period whilst they travel for cultural reasons.

Or

Another Romany family getting moved on from unofficial encampments because they are homeless - and being given the vacated permanent pitch?

I’d like to know what Romany people would say about that.

As a non Romany, I’d be fuming if I was homeless and moving around constantly, disrupting my child’s access to education -and found out that those who had luckily reached the top of the “permanent site” list, we’re leaving it attempt whilst they went off travelling again.

*leaving it empty

If permanent pitches are in such short supply - and they are - they should prioritise those who want to be based on them permanently.

If this happens “all too often” then there is a problem with the way the pitches are allocated, and used.

If your lifestyle is shit for your kids and damages their chances in life you change your lifestyle surely?

I guess it is probably easier on your conscience to blame everyone else though.

@Cocomarine

What’s more important?

One Romany family with a permanent council site pitch being allowed to leave that pitch vacant for an extended period whilst they travel for cultural reasons.

Or

Another Romany family getting moved on from unofficial encampments because they are homeless - and being given the vacated permanent pitch?

I’d like to know what Romany people would say about that.

As a non Romany, I’d be fuming if I was homeless and moving around constantly, disrupting my child’s access to education -and found out that those who had luckily reached the top of the “permanent site” list, we’re leaving it attempt whilst they went off travelling again.

I'd say they were equally important. You need to know you have somewhere to come back to, especially if you are still paying to have the plot. Fair enough if councils don't want to offer this, thes shouldn't state that they do. Provide enough sites and there isn't a problem.

Flaunch

Of course you would change a lifestyle choice, but we aren't talking about a lifestyle choice, we are talking about having the same rights as everyone else, in practice, not just lip service. Being able to preserve our culture.
People do travel as a lifestyle choice, you see them on youtube "the xyz gypsy", "The unexpected gypsy", etc. They choose, not those born into the Romany or Irish traveller races.

What rights do you not have that everyone else does?

The Human Race Act.
As far as I've been informed and believe Lawyers set to challenge the new and some existing laws that affect travellers seem to be focusing on Article 1 of the first protocol "Protection of property".
Article 8 particulary "Respect for private and family life",
Article 2 protocol 1 "Right to Education." The most obvious one.
Clean water and sanitation, especially in a pandemic would have been good, too.
I'm not a Lawyer, so have no more info on that, just following with interest.

Can you link this
I am not sure how you are prevented enjoying these particular rights?

Also, not a dig (!) i assume that was a autocorrect which happens to all of us - Human Rights Act.

To be honest, I wasn't concentrating, I get a bit passionate

Please don't ask me where the Lawyers are looking, although I know education and basic services come up a lot. Plus protection from discrimination, but not sure where that bit is. www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights/human-rights-act
This may be of interest too.
www.gypsy-traveller.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Availability-of-pitches-on-Traveller-sites-in-England_FINAL.pdf

Would you tell any other race to move with the times, and I'm sure you think your putting your childrens needs first, just as we do

Yes, we do exactly that. Such as the campaigns to try and stop immigrant communities marrying their cousins to reduce the rate of genetic problems in their children.

So what you want is a network of council sites, with full services, that you can move around to at will, because your culture is to "travel". Who do you expect to pay for that? And why is moving between different council pitches within England worth ruining your childrens chances of a decent education and a future?

You have all the rights listed already. You have all the rights I have. What you want is extra, special, provisions, to support a way of life that has no place in the 21st century and is not their to be paid for by everyone else.

@HotCrossBumsticks people with pitches on official council sites (and I think authorised private sites too) pay rent, service charges and council tax. So the who should pay question is already answered: the traveller.

Where the sites are council provision, it’s just another form of social housing, where full rents aren’t subsidised. (Housing benefit maybe, but just the same rules as in private rented bricks and mortar)

So in that respect, providing sites isn’t that different than building social housing - and it’s actually a lot cheaper.

Because it’s so much cheaper, I don’t personally see an issue with every permanent site having X number of temporary pitches, bookable and charged at a rent that is self funding in terms of management.

There are of course private campsites up and down the country which allow for regular travel - although I’m sure that OP would tell us that there are racism issues booking those.

I do think that the system could work - but it needs the sites to be built.

I guess if you’re in the travelling community you see the lack of pitches as persecution of your way of life. If you’re outside it, perhaps - like me - you see the lack of provision as part of a wider housing crisis. That said, I’m sure there are specific issues around planning permission and community response to planned traveller sites.

Perhaps when new housing estates are built, and a number must be designated as social housing, there should also be a number of traveller pitches allocated on the site. More pitches, and more understanding of each other developing from proximity.

I am absolutely with you on developing though... our laws already allow for Home Education, so no-one is forcing a traveller to stop travelling because of bricks and mortar schools. But I do think that traveller families need to decide whether one consistent school will deliver the best education - and if so, they need to put that first. Many do.

Perhaps when new housing estates are built, and a number must be designated as social housing, there should also be a number of traveller pitches allocated on the site

Will never happen. Nobody wants to live next door to a halting site.

With regards to common land though, which OP mentioned some pages ago...

With the huge increase in population and urbanisation of the U.K., I just don’t think that access to common land for longer term camping is sustainable. I’m not talking about single nights on the way somewhere, or a week around a horse fair dates - I mean day in, day out, people living on those areas of land. Of course - I’m not saying it’s easy to police who is a hiker having one night of wild camper, who is a traveller at a horse fair, who is a non traveller just on holiday. But in principle - access to common land for traveller encampment just isn’t sustainable - because of the mess caused by many PEOPLE (not only Travellers, as we saw last summer) but also the increasing lack of space.

@HotCrossBumsticks

Perhaps when new housing estates are built, and a number must be designated as social housing, there should also be a number of traveller pitches allocated on the site

Will never happen. Nobody wants to live next door to a halting site.

Well, I didn’t ever say it would happen!

But wouldn’t it be great if it did?

Studies have shown time and again that racism is reduced by contact and understanding.

If you read the detail on current site provision, they’re often not that big.

Wouldn’t it be great if people didn’t assume that all travellers were dirty if they walked past the small site every day and saw that it wasn’t?

Wouldn’t it be great if children went for tea and a play date into both types of homes?

Wouldn’t it be great if the myth was busted about crime rates?

Wouldn’t it be great if people understood that it’s just another type of housing, that’s all?

[quote Devlesko]To be honest, I wasn't concentrating, I get a bit passionate

Please don't ask me where the Lawyers are looking, although I know education and basic services come up a lot. Plus protection from discrimination, but not sure where that bit is. www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights/human-rights-act
This may be of interest too.
www.gypsy-traveller.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Availability-of-pitches-on-Traveller-sites-in-England_FINAL.pdf[/quote]
Thanks. Yes, it is interesting!

I was hoping for some article to see how they are arguing the breaches of human rights like with article 8 for example.

But wouldn’t it be great if it did?

No, it would not.

Wouldn’t it be great if people didn’t assume that all travellers were dirty if they walked past the small site every day and saw that it wasn’t?

I frequently walk past a semi permanent site. It's filthy

Wouldn’t it be great if children went for tea and a play date into both types of homes?

IME traveller children are not allowed to mix with non traveller children. Their parents don't let then

Wouldn’t it be great if the myth was busted about crime rates?
Sure, except its not a myth

Wouldn’t it be great if people understood that it’s just another type of housing, that’s all?

But it isn't just another type of housing.

On crime: not according to the Deputy Chief Constable who is the GRT lead within our police service - Janette McCormick.

Look, I’m not going to argue with you that some sites aren’t filthy. I live near a piece of land that’s regularly used as an unauthorised encampment for 2-3 caravans and it is often left filthy. But I also worked opposite a permanent site that was wasn’t. And frankly, my sister lives on a housing estate in a deprived area and you walk down her street and some houses are lovely with clean children outside, and a small number have the abandoned tyres and rusted one wheeled bikes look out front, which seem to go hand in hand with the kids who look like they’ve never seen a face cloth. Some people are clean, some people are not.

As for the mixing... that’s my point about living alongside people from other races, ethnicities, cultures, lifestyle, religions, income - whatever difference - it breaks down barriers.

Does a traveller mother keep her children close because she’s afraid for them? Because she know how many people share your views on cleanliness and crime? Who think, “well who’s going to pay for that?” without realising that actually rent, services and council tax are all paid by travellers on sites?

Perhaps that mother would be willing to mix if her child never came home from school with tales of bullying. If people said, “oh you’re X’s mum, aren’t you?” with a smile at the school gate, as they hand over a party invitation.

It's not cultural requirements that is stopping us from accessing services, it's not being given long tenancies on council sites and the shortage of provision.

You travel 9-10 months of the year but you want long tenancies on the same site? I don't understand.

This would enable travellers to register with gp, attend school, etc.

You can already do that. But then you can't travel.

Honestly your proposals don't make sense. You have access to everything other people do, but you keep moving around and not re-registering. You could stay in one place but you don't want to, and prioritise travel over education and healthcare. How is this anybody else's fault?

@HeyDemonsItsYaGirl

It's not cultural requirements that is stopping us from accessing services, it's not being given long tenancies on council sites and the shortage of provision.

You travel 9-10 months of the year but you want long tenancies on the same site? I don't understand.

This would enable travellers to register with gp, attend school, etc.

You can already do that. But then you can't travel.

Honestly your proposals don't make sense. You have access to everything other people do, but you keep moving around and not re-registering. You could stay in one place but you don't want to, and prioritise travel over education and healthcare. How is this anybody else's fault?

If we had access like everyone else there would be no need to campaign this isn't made up, you know.

People aren't travelling for 9 months and expecting to keep a place on a site. They are going for a summer holiday or to visit friends and family in other areas.
I don't need a site, for me personally I would like to be able to stop on the roadside like we did pre covid. Now, I can't as criminalised.
My needs are different to those with children requiring school places who need long tenancies on council property (sites), surely that's not difficult to understand.

My needs are different to those with children requiring school places who need long tenancies on council property (sites), surely that's not difficult to understand

Of course its difficult to understand, your points are entirely contradictory! You state you need facilities to enable you to travel as thats your culture, but that you need long term tenancies in one place to allow children to go to school.
You can have those: its called a rented house.

@HotCrossBumsticks

My needs are different to those with children requiring school places who need long tenancies on council property (sites), surely that's not difficult to understand

Of course its difficult to understand, your points are entirely contradictory! You state you need facilities to enable you to travel as thats your culture, but that you need long term tenancies in one place to allow children to go to school.
You can have those: its called a rented house.

Bingo, rented homes. Only gov doesn't want to provide this for travellers, unless they opt to live in bricks and mortar and lose much of their culture. Some have no choice, it's the only way they get to access services. This is the problem.

The bit that affects me directly is not being able to travel and stop at the side of the road. I don't want to move in at the side of the road.
Our way of life is being criminalised thanks to gov and society in general.
I was raised very strictly ito cleanliness and my children likewise. The philosophy being that gorgers (non travellers) believe we are dirty, don't give them reason to.
Mine weren't even allowed to drop a tissue without picking it up.
All Romany I know are like this.
I'm told those that leave a mess usually have an Irish accent, I don't know many Irish travellers but those I do report they aren't Irish travelers either. I believe them.
Of course they make a mess, I've seen the photo's it's disgusting and not the way to fight inequality racism and discrimination.
I understand, I don't condone and neither does anyone I know.

Bingo, rented homes. Only gov doesn't want to provide this for travellers, unless they opt to live in bricks and mortar and lose much of their culture

You haven't said what that culture is. You won't. Other than "travelling around but also not travelling around".

The bit that affects me directly is not being able to travel and stop at the side of the road. I don't want to move in at the side of the road.Our way of life is being criminalised thanks to gov and society in general

So your problem is that you can't stop your caravan or whatever at the side of any road you choose? Well, neither can I. Or anyone else. Of course you can't, why would you be able to?

Why shouldn't you be able to stop at the side of the road, how is it harming anyone. Why is it being criminalised?
Why eradicate a races culture? Why lose it?
I don't understand your point tbh.
What do you want to know about our culture?
Travelling and not travelling is what we do for various reasons, we are individuals the same as the rest of society. Everyone who lives in a house isn't the same.

Why shouldn't you be able to stop at the side of the road, how is it harming anyone. Why is it being criminalised?

If there are caravans stopped at the side of any road you please, it could be harming lots of people in various ways.

What do you want to know about our culture?

From this thread, nothing. You seem incapable of stating what it consists of, the only definition given is travelling and/or not travelling. You haven't given a single example of what your culture consists of, and yet you seem very cross that people aren;t understanding what it is.