Census I don't belong.

[Devlesko]

I'm equally sadened and angered.
Every other ethnicity covered as far as I know, all other travelling groups rightly so. Roma who are here from Eastern Europe.

We have been told by campaigners to stand up and be counted so that we can access healthcare and schools.
Now we are white other, not a mention.

It's not just semantics we are all different ethnicities with separate cultures, the only similarity is we travel, or try to. Our DNA is distinctive to our ethnicity Irish and Romany are completely different.

What is a gypsy? What ethnicity? It doesn't exist. But more recently those who are interested and thank you, know that Romany originate from India, around 1,500 years ago and have been in the UK for 500 years.
During which time we have been enslaved, tortured, murdered, transported, hated by society and persecuted by Kings and Governments.

I'm sick of the back door laws to erode if not annilate our culture. It just isn't fair. Society tars us all with the same brush, but you can ask any health visitor who has ever visited how family orientated we are and spotlessley clean.

Gypsy is a slur for American Romany and Europeans. But it's that bad in the UK where we face racism daily that it's hardly worth fighting the use of the word "gypsy"

I'm writing this because I know whilst theres a few on here with Romany links, Mumsnet is a new audience and apart from me very few would venture. That is nothing personal, just a different culture.

So when you see us being refused service in a pub, restaurant, wedding reception venue, don't spit at us, laugh, call us names, we are human.

It's a diverse culture like any other, if you have something specific to ask then i'll answer.

Who would be harmed by a caravan, trailor, or horse and vardo at the side of the road?
I'm not talking busy road, there are plenty of spaces, according to the reports from charities and forums I use. To be honest I just see the opposition to our culture from gov and society racist. Lack of understanding is fair enough, nobody is expected to know the culture of every race.

Have a look at this from Liberty www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/issue/policing-bill-threatens-protest-rights/

Who would be harmed by a caravan, trailor, or horse and vardo at the side of the road?

It's not A caravan though, if you make it legal for anyone to do. It would be quite a lot. Without a water hook up, electricity, waste services etc..

It's a diverse culture like any other, if you have something specific to ask then i'll answer
Specifically, what is this culture that you can't sum up? What does it consist of? What makes you different to anyone else? And please don't say travelling/not travelling again.

If we had access like everyone else there would be no need to campaign confused this isn't made up, you know

We'll it's been 13 pages and I still don't understand what external barriers you face. You have the same rights as everybody else but you choose not to use them. So perhaps not made up but self-made is a better descriptor.

Reasons one or a number of us might need/want to travel.

Attending a wedding, Christening, Birth support.
Spending the night with a dead relative (I've often done this)
When we can live together on a site (usually reserved for those who own the land) we are multi generational.
The women including Cousins, Aunts, Mother and Grandmother will all be on hand for births at home or support post natal.
Family is the most important thing to us.
Unless you come from a family with many marrying out you will be related to every Romany wherever in the world they live.
I'm not quite an elder yet, although this is usually reserved for grandparents (as I am) we still have elders still alive.
Our elders inform the younger and some in my family were upset and angry recently as two cousins married.
Despite the myth whilst this still exists it's more frowned upon than expected now, as the gene pool has been quite small.
It's not uncommon on many family trees to find your parents morph into one family after a couple/few generations.
We have some of the culture from the old Indian Caste system, many think we are a patriarchal race and I suppose we are considered to some of western society, but we have complete choice over what we do with our lives, we just choose our partner who shares our philosophy, unlike much of society who end up getting divorced due to incompatibility

@HeyDemonsItsYaGirl

If we had access like everyone else there would be no need to campaign confused this isn't made up, you know

We'll it's been 13 pages and I still don't understand what external barriers you face. You have the same rights as everybody else but you choose not to use them. So perhaps not made up but self-made is a better descriptor.

I've told you the barriers we face. Access to services, such as education, clean water and sanitation, somewhere to stop, more site provision, and our racial cuIture not criminalised. couldn't have been plainer.

@devlesko, given that the U.K. is a nation of camping and caravanning lovers so sites are abundant - why is it that you can’t just pay to stay on a campsite now, when you travel?

Base permanent site provided by the council - as it is now, for - just with enough to meet the need, which isn’t the case now. That permanent site not to be given away in your absence - possibly subject to some rules that some existing sites have about minimum occupancy nights.

All the reasons that you listed for travel - family events, basically - are common to non-travellers. Some will book a hotel or AirBnB nearby for the duration. Some will stay with relatives. Some will (like me!) drive up in a camper van and pay to stay on a site nearby.

I will believe you if you tell me that some sites would turn you away.

But in principle - why can’t you express your culture of travel by staying on paid for private site pitches?

I posted earlier today, I think that our population now, and urbanisation, means that it doesn’t work to just have people staying anywhere they want on common land.

We saw this really clearly in Scotland last summer with the Covid impact. Areas well know for wild camping with no issues, were just inundated. Yes, there were issues with mess and destruction (not Travellers) but there was also an issue with space. Of course I hope that reduces once the world opens up again - but it’s a good example of what I mean. There are just more people and less land than there was before.

But you are simultaneously railing at being “forced into council housing” as a solution to that list of problems, a solution that a vast swathe of the planet would be heartily glad of. You state that your reasons for needing to travel are to attend weddings or spend the night with a deceased family member. Do you imagine that non travellers do t do any of that? We all live a life of compromises, but that’s not the fault of the government or the council.

I've read every post on this thread and I am still none the wiser as to what it is exactly that Roma/Romany/travellers/gypsies CAN'T access.

They have exactly the same rights to education, housing, medical care, etc as everyone else.
They have exactly the same obligations against trespass, bigotry, etc as everyone else.

They want a permanent address with clean water and sanitation so they can educate their kids. But how dare councils offer them a council house?

I wish I could understand, because I keep hearing about the racism and the oppression, but WHERE is it?

Your culture is visiting your family? Come off it, you haven't described a culture at all there! Try again

Access to services, such as education, clean water and sanitation

You have all those at the same level as we all do

somewhere to stop, more site provision, and our racial cuIture not criminalised. couldn't have been plainer
Your racial culture is not criminalised. Camping on other peoples land is, same as it is for all.

Your entire complaints seem to be that you are treated the exact same as anyone else in the UK. You don't get any special treatment to facilitate you travelling around the country in a caravan

My culture traditionally involves multi generaltional family homes and compounds, with maybe 50 members of a family living together/in near proximity. It's never occurred to me to expect any local council or government to provide such places for us to live, or to accuse them of ruining our culture when they don't. It doesn't fit in the 21st century in the Uk, and if anyone wants to carry on that aspect of our culture, it's up to us to provide it!

I've told you the barriers we face.
Access to services, such as education, clean water and sanitation, somewhere to stop, more site provision, and our racial cuIture not criminalised. couldn't have been plainer.

Your explanation is that you can't access these things because they are provided to permanent homes or tied to an address and you refuse to have a permanent home. This is a self made barrier.

Also, littering. We have had massive issues nearby with local fields being strewn with mess.

@Hont1986 my understanding is:

Many Travellers don’t want a council house, because the ability to travel is part of their culture, so they want to live in a house that can move (a caravan).

They also, culturally, want to live in close extended family groups. Which is rather lovely, I think! You can’t get that through council housing.

You can meet both of those cultural needs (or preferences, if you like) by offering a council site pitch.

This is something that Travellers pay rent on, and council tax.

The big win for the council and the tax payer is that it is cheaper than council housing - so it’s win / win.

Permanent pitch allows for a family to send their children to school and access all other services.

There is legislation that require councils to provide these pitches, assessed on Traveller needs every 5 years, via the GTAA, under the Housing Act 2004.

The issue there is similar to other affordable housing: there isn’t enough.

But in principle, the legislation is there.

For the OP, being forced into a council house (because a pitch is not available, and you want a permanent location for example for access to education) means culture is destroyed as you no longer live in a home that can move, or in an extended family group.

So far, I’m with her.

She loses me with the travelling though.

If you choose to travel, why do you need culturally, to be allowed to stop for free on common land? Why can’t you just pay to stay on the existing network of sites? Where you’re fully mobile and can stay in family groups.

Where I get confused - on this thread - is sanitation and water being thrown in by the OP.

If you want more council sites with water and sanitation for permanent pitching (from which you can travel, just as I can from my bricks and mortar home, for months if I wish) - I’m with you!

If you want to travel - pick a site with sanitation and water. Most have. Some have fresh water and waste disposal only, and no toilet or shower block - but that’s fine in a caravan.

But if you want to stay for free on common land and have water and sanitation... you’re in cloud cuckoo land!

It’s an interesting discussion and I wish OP would stop mixing up permanent sites and travelling, as it’s very confusing.

Some sympathy for the OP here.

There are (mostly Irish) travellers who were mostly navvies who built our railroads and canals etc, god thank them. Allegedly many don't pay taxes, do own land both in the UK and Ireland and have some notorious families involved in human trafficking and slavery, dog napping. And a few who do the "tarmac offer" though it's not always them. The "Big Fat Gypsy Wedding" did them all a disservice.

And then the Roma who have come over from Eastern Europe (mostly) over the last 30 years, who are impoverished and disliked in their home countries and have apparently trafficked people and drugs and sent teams round cities to pickpocket.

Then there are the Romany. Who just wanted to travel as their forefathers did, mostly helping repair pans, work the fields in season etc etc.

There are not enough sites for all the travelling groups, that's clear. And I can see why the OP wants to distinguish her heritage from the others. But I think she needs to suggest a solution.

The problem

Hi op we have a large site for travelling families near us NW with a good number of children accessing the local schools.
I have taught a fair few. Some are in full time, some are in for chunks of time but the children are given access to education.
Our local traveller families are Irish travellers. Would Romani families share the same local facilities, or is that a limitation?

@IHateCoronavirus the OP will give you a better answer than me, but as a result of this thread, just yesterday I was reading one council’s report on its site. They described each in terms of numbers and type. I think it was Hereford. One site of a small number of pitches was described as entirely occupied by one extended family. Another, was described as being a well integrated mix of Irish Traveller and Romany Gypsy.

I’m sure it comes down to individual families. I read one council’s application form (think this one was Bradford) and it had 3 sites and you ticked which you wanted to go on the waiting list for - that would create a certain mix too, I expect, with people selecting those that are already mainly filled by their own ethnic group.

I know some are given access many, unfortunately aren't able to stay in one area due to being moved on and having nowhere to go.
Sometimes, like I said upthread they travel to be with family for a while, usually between 2-6 weeks, then come back to no base. They then become one of the homeless having to stop and make an unauthorised site. They have nowhere to go and stop.
The children to receive a ft education will be those on a site they own or a good council site that do hold plots for those willing to continue paying in their absence.
I'm not sure what age you teach but have you seen "It's Kushty to rocker"? My apologies if I'm teaching my grandma how to suck eggs.

Well, in no particular order, what people seem to object to is:

The mess left behind
The lack of respect to private property
Noisy disruption to the local area
Crime

@devlesko - the people you know who have lost their council site plot whilst away travelling - were they on permanent or temporary plots?

[quote Devlesko]I know some are given access many, unfortunately aren't able to stay in one area due to being moved on and having nowhere to go.
Sometimes, like I said upthread they travel to be with family for a while, usually between 2-6 weeks, then come back to no base. They then become one of the homeless having to stop and make an unauthorised site. They have nowhere to go and stop.
The children to receive a ft education will be those on a site they own or a good council site that do hold plots for those willing to continue paying in their absence.
I'm not sure what age you teach but have you seen "It's Kushty to rocker"? My apologies if I'm teaching my grandma how to suck eggs.

[/quote] That was a really interesting watch. It made me think. Thankyou

@Umbivalent

Well, in no particular order, what people seem to object to is:

The mess left behind
The lack of respect to private property
Noisy disruption to the local area
Crime

It's also everything that all the travellers I know object to as well. The answer is not to criminalise two races, and descriminate. The answer isn't persecution and abandonment of people with nowhere to go. Being homeless, either by not owning a home or not being able to use your home for it's intended purpose should not be a crime. Provide enough sites and services and there will be none of the above. They do this as they have no other choice, as disgusting as they are.

Provide enough sites and services and there will be none of the above.
They do this as they have no other choice, as disgusting as they are

They have no other choice but to rob local houses? Break into local cars? Leave disgusting flytipping on local lanes? All that happened close to where my mother lives.

Not everyone behaves like that, I know. But it's your answer as to why settlements aren't welcome.

Oh come on - how does having no sites make leaving a mess “no other choice”?

You said that when you travel, you are clean - and you believe that to be culturally important to other Romany.

So what are you doing with your mess?

There is no excuse to leave unauthorised encampment sites in a state.

Develsko - so you are saying you would like lots of sites, up and down the country, clean and with sanitation and water supply. These should be available to you, free, at any given moment. But you’re still going to travel much / most of the time. So how would your children’s education not be disrupted, even if all these ideal sites were ready and waiting? Every time children move, it’s new friends, new teachers, slightly different curriculum, etc. This is inevitable.

Also, you say your culture still maintains elements of the Indian caste system. How exactly and what caste do you see yourselves as? Seeing as India rid itself of the caste system a long time ago, does that not tell you something? My husband is Indian - descended from Brahmins no less. So what? Some things are history for a very good reason.

[quote Cocomarine]@devlesko - the people you know who have lost their council site plot whilst away travelling - were they on permanent or temporary plots?[/quote]
Both type of sites. I'm not a conspiricist but some have suggested council back handers. The original occupants don't lose financially they are refunded their costs, but little compensation when you have nowhere to go.

The sanitation and services comment is the state of some of the sites ito lack of services and maintenance.
People without electricity, and having to double up to help family with nowhere to go. It's a mess.
Even those willing to forgo their culture and accept a council house are still homeless as they are on the list the same as everyone else, and rightly so.