Census I don't belong.

[Devlesko]

I'm equally sadened and angered.
Every other ethnicity covered as far as I know, all other travelling groups rightly so. Roma who are here from Eastern Europe.

We have been told by campaigners to stand up and be counted so that we can access healthcare and schools.
Now we are white other, not a mention.

It's not just semantics we are all different ethnicities with separate cultures, the only similarity is we travel, or try to. Our DNA is distinctive to our ethnicity Irish and Romany are completely different.

What is a gypsy? What ethnicity? It doesn't exist. But more recently those who are interested and thank you, know that Romany originate from India, around 1,500 years ago and have been in the UK for 500 years.
During which time we have been enslaved, tortured, murdered, transported, hated by society and persecuted by Kings and Governments.

I'm sick of the back door laws to erode if not annilate our culture. It just isn't fair. Society tars us all with the same brush, but you can ask any health visitor who has ever visited how family orientated we are and spotlessley clean.

Gypsy is a slur for American Romany and Europeans. But it's that bad in the UK where we face racism daily that it's hardly worth fighting the use of the word "gypsy"

I'm writing this because I know whilst theres a few on here with Romany links, Mumsnet is a new audience and apart from me very few would venture. That is nothing personal, just a different culture.

So when you see us being refused service in a pub, restaurant, wedding reception venue, don't spit at us, laugh, call us names, we are human.

@zahra7

Develsko - so you are saying you would like lots of sites, up and down the country, clean and with sanitation and water supply. These should be available to you, free, at any given moment. But you’re still going to travel much / most of the time. So how would your children’s education not be disrupted, even if all these ideal sites were ready and waiting? Every time children move, it’s new friends, new teachers, slightly different curriculum, etc. This is inevitable.

Also, you say your culture still maintains elements of the Indian caste system. How exactly and what caste do you see yourselves as? Seeing as India rid itself of the caste system a long time ago, does that not tell you something? My husband is Indian - descended from Brahmins no less. So what? Some things are history for a very good reason.

Of course we should be allowed the same as everyone else, why not. Nobody is asking for free anything, have you not read the thread? We pay exactly the same bills as you do I agree wholeheartedly, it's not good for children to have to move, far better for them to be resident on a site permanantely.

I don't know about the caste system, I believe it would have been diluted and influenced from many nationalities over our 1,500 year migration Some of our traditions and culture is said to come from an Indian Caste.

I notice you didn't respond to my point. Many of us come from cultures that have certain ways of living, but we do not expect it to be provided for us.

I agree wholeheartedly, it's not good for children to have to move, far better for them to be resident on a site permanantely

Then what is the problem with living in a house?

Re the census, @Develsko I can understand your unhappiness. You feel unseen, as an ethnic group. All those who say 'but you can't define yourselves waaaahhhh'... Well that is just a load of cultural blindness. Ethnicity is basically self-identification, shared history, shared power struggles, inclusion/ exclusion... The idea you can write off someone's ethnicity by pointing at objective traits, i.e., but we travel when someone dies too is pretty daft.

For context I live in an area where land and property is £££ but which has a large Irish traveller population with smaller numbers of Romany people.

OP... Tell us how you are different from Irish travellers. I think that is the most interesting issue here, to me.....

You don't have to condone to understand.
I don't leave a mess, we are a clean race. So are other traveller races.
There is no excuse, but there's a reason.
You know my stance on cleanliness, you'll never get an animal in my home, washing all done in certain ways, even the washing up.
trailors and caravans scrubbed daily, pristine and shining.
You can see your face in my silver and my Royal Crown Derby gleams. My dd has refused to smash it when I die, so I said I'd haunt her.

I don't leave a mess, we are a clean race. So are other traveller races

You told us that everyone is individual and different, and that you werent' all one thing. There is no such thing as a clean race, and there very much such things as filthy traveller sites. Doesn't mean they all are, but stop pretending its not a thing.

@Aalvarino

Re the census, *@Develsko* I can understand your unhappiness. You feel unseen, as an ethnic group. All those who say 'but you can't define yourselves waaaahhhh'... Well that is just a load of cultural blindness. Ethnicity is basically self-identification, shared history, shared power struggles, inclusion/ exclusion... The idea you can write off someone's ethnicity by pointing at objective traits, i.e., but we travel when someone dies too is pretty daft.

For context I live in an area where land and property is £££ but which has a large Irish traveller population with smaller numbers of Romany people.

OP... Tell us how you are different from Irish travellers. I think that is the most interesting issue here, to me.....

I wish I could, but I don't know much about Irish travellers. I wouldn't want to offend by ill informing people.

However, the main difference is religion, Irish travellers are Roman Catholic, and Romany are Christian, you'll find around 80% of Romany with biblical names, the rest a mix of princesses, floral.
E.g a branch of my Smiths (Petulengro) had floral names for every girl for 2 generations, right across the families.
The travelling for family reasons isn't daft though. Take funerals,
hundreds attend, we stay for a while to socialise and sit with the body, if it was someone special to us, it takes a couple of weeks, not just a day. We own many grave plots throughout the country and burying dead is important.

You'll find links and more on my thread

"I'm a gypsiologist AMA"

Sorry, I meant to say Protestant, not Christian duh!

@Develsko I was agreeing that stuff like death and burial practices are legit and can be an important part of being an ethnic group.... maybe I mangled that.

Where do you stay mostly?

A lot of things aren't on the census, thinking about it.

Gender= I put 'I don't believe in gender.'

Ethnicity does have an 'other' box.

I might be missing something but a simple solution would be for every 'traveller' to buy and operate a permanent site. Then allow the whole community to travel around each others site.

I mean when we go caravanning we pay for a site. When we go to a funeral we pay for accommodation. I dont understand why anyone expects it to be free, we are all equal.

[quote Aalvarino]@Develsko I was agreeing that stuff like death and burial practices are legit and can be an important part of being an ethnic group.... maybe I mangled that.

Where do you stay mostly?[/quote]
Personally, pre covid I travelled in a van/ trailor depending on what we were doing as an immediate family.
Not sure if this is what you mean?
We aren't typical and had found a way to keep our culture without conforming to another culture, that just isn't us.
Now, I feel in the position to support others and covid aside have always had friends and family to stay in our bricks n mortar while we travelled.
Has been used as a safe house, yes dv exists in our culture too. Nothing like what you'll hear though. I'd say on the whole men are more respectable towards women than the rest of society, but we are good at finding right for right. Sometimes it's given a bit of help by an elder aunt or cousin. Only if the young woman asked, of course.
I needed no help, and as said upthread my gorger husband is accepted into the family as he's a family member, end of.

Apologies, I must have read wrong.

@newstart1337

I might be missing something but a simple solution would be for every 'traveller' to buy and operate a permanent site. Then allow the whole community to travel around each others site.

I mean when we go caravanning we pay for a site. When we go to a funeral we pay for accommodation. I dont understand why anyone expects it to be free, we are all equal.

This happened in the 60's. My family were new forest, descendants of the kings and Queens they used to hold grand balls for dignitaries, one married a councillor Evicted and promised sites, the wise and rich bought up land. If there was local objection it wasn't listened to because we were wanted out of the forests, and off the roads. They let us build bungalows and enough space to run a business and keep horses. Mine were horse dealers and regulars at Appleby. If you look at the pathe news reels of the wedding on Yorkshire Moors and look at the difference in the huge move from Kent. The difference in 20 years is unbelievable. It really was ethnic cleansing without guns. Look at our history it's so interesting, even to non travellers, so I've been told

I'd say on the whole men are more respectable towards women than the rest of society

I seem to remember you once saying on a thread that traveller women and girls were shit inside and not allowed to go out during their periods.

You didn’t answer @newstart1337 though.

You’re saying that in the 60s, some travellers who could afford it bought land.

But you were being asked: why don’t travellers as a group buy private land and establish their own sites, with travel between them.

And you didn’t answer my earlier question, which was why can’t you pay to stay on regular camping and caravanning sites when you travel, which would allow you to travel all over the country - including for 6 week funeral periods?

And this is what I meant a few days ago about you being as slippery as a politician...

You were asked where stay, mostly?

And you answered that you travelled in a van mostly.

That’s like someone asking me what my favourite food is, and me replying that I own a nice set of dining plates 🤣

*where you stay

And this is what I meant a few days ago about you being as slippery as a politician...

Mm. I thought this thread was made in good faith but I'm realising it wasn't.

Travelling around sounds attractive in a way. I'd like the freedom and the lack of conformity. I would not like living on any kind of site where everyone knew my business and there were any kind of expectations about the internal state of my wagon though :) I think I would be shunned. ....

Anyway this has all got away from the OP a bit.... It's tricky. There isn't an ethnic category for me on the census so I had to fill in other. I didn't care but I suspect that I don't care precisely because people of my (half) ethnicity don't suffer from structural inequality in the same way that Romany, IT, and Roma people do.

If you want permanent sites then buy the land and maintain it. Same as anyone else - I own my property so I pay to maintain it. I rent so I pay maintenance fees. Use holiday campsites when you want to travel.

I’m still none the wiser about what your cultural differences are other than expecting to stay in a caravan if/when you travel, exactly where you want, with water and electric hook ups provided. I kind of want that too - but I stay in hotels or with family or whatever, as even if I wanted to, I don’t expect to be right next door to whomever I’m visiting. I don’t expect anyone else to foot the bill for that either.

I’m interested to know how you deal with toilets and the like when on a site (of any description). Also interested to know how you can be so sure that ‘as a race’ you’re all so clean? Like there’s definitely not even one person who’s a lazy bastard and litters occasionally?

I don’t know why you think the census has got anything to do with it, especially when you can and should just include your ethnicity in the free form box.

Most traveller sites I know of in England are very clean indeed.

At least compared to two miles away up the back lanes where you will see piles of rubble, conifer clippings, mattresses etc.

I’d say the ‘Other’ section is for those of us who didn’t fit into the options on the list. I just filled mine in on that part. They can’t list every ethnic minority or the form would be ridiculously long. What is the problem. I don’t understand.

@PantherPantherus

Most traveller sites I know of in England are very clean indeed.

At least compared to two miles away up the back lanes where you will see piles of rubble, conifer clippings, mattresses etc.

Well, yes.

OP doesn't answer any questions and doesn't respond to any points.

I asked why she thinks her cultural heritage should be supported and faciliated by the authorities when others are not....no answer.

She doesn't want the same rights as everyone else, she already has them. She wants special treatment that gives her more than everyone else.

OP boasts of the Appleby Horse Fair...famous for animal cruelty, mass brawls, epic littering and criminality.

The question about buying land is simple.
Opposition. It's fine until local people find out you are travellers, then the planning applications are suddenly refused.
It's very hard to buy land/ planning permission.
Some councillors object to a site in their town and whip up local objection.
Question about cleanliness. I've never met a dirty Romany, unless they were working at the time. We take pride in our vans, scrub them daily, it's a standard that is expected, as cleanliness is next to godliness.

No hook up for electric needed on the side of the road, but sanitation that was supposed to happen for those not able to move during the pandemic didn't happen for many.
In fact basic services weren't provided let alone something like electricity. Despite following to the letter the info issued by government about staying put and informing councils. This isn't usually expected of course, but really needed when unable to travel.

Why should we have to stay on a holiday site when there is space at the roadside, looking at lovely countryside.

My rubbish in a black bin bag and disposed of in appropriate bins, usually supermarket with the shop. Use site bins on arrival.
Bricks and mortar home, when I get back.
Toilet disposal exactly the same as rubbish, anywhere on our travels that allows waste disposal. Or when we get to a site, use friends services on sites.
We tend to use public toilets out and about unless they hear we are in the area and they are closed.