To think that most men do respect women

[katieloves]

I’m concerned about the vilification of men that we’re hearing a lot about. I know there’s some men who disrespect women and this absolutely needs to stop, but equally I’ve witnessed women being equally disrespectful to men. I’ve seen plenty of women feeling up men etc. on a night out and it being laughed off. If this was reversed it would be considered assault. It feels like all men are being accused of treating women badly and I just don’t see it.

[quote RootyT00t]@Pumperthepumper That's a ridiculous comparison. The three women a week on the whole die at the hands of men they know, usually abusers

They are not waiting in the park.[/quote]
Wrong again. Should I take the risk and go running knowing there is a group of three men in my local area harassing lone female runners?

When and where can we talk about the three women every week in the UK who are killed by men?

@TheJerkStore

To some extent I agree with you *@RootyT00t* . I had a similar discussion with DH about it on Friday. We should have been angry about this before and the 'she was just walking home' hashtag suggests she didn't deserve this because she was behaving properly.

No women deserves to be murdered - I don't care if you're drunk and naked in the street you still don't deserve it.

However, I do think it's making more people pay attention to issues many of us have been shouting about for a long time so I see that as a good thing.

I don't disagree with any of this, jerk.

But it's an appalling campaign.

@RootyT00t i have

You have not. How many more women have to die until we find an appropriate time and place to have this conversation? When and where?

@Pumperthepumper when and where you like. What you cant do is twist events to suit agendas and agree with campaigns and protests which have been vetoed by the people who are actually the victims, not the people who have made it about them.

[quote RootyT00t]@Pumperthepumper when and where you like. What you cant do is twist events to suit agendas and agree with campaigns and protests which have been vetoed by the people who are actually the victims, not the people who have made it about them.[/quote]
Again with suit agendas - keeping women safe being the agenda you’re too coy to write out.

Which is different to pretending it’s such a rare occurrence that we don’t have to offend men by asking them to step up.

OP your argument has long been known in feminist discussion as Not My Nigel.

It's a position that is as old as the hills. It is a variation of NAMALT and close cousin to Women Do It Too.

They are all arguments that exist in a vacuum. They fail to take into account the real world. They are fantasy arguments.

Society exists. Culture exists. Institutions exist. Power structures exist. And in all of these, class exists. And our sons and daughters are not currently considered to be in the same sex class and those sex classes are not attributed equal status (and never have been or certainly not within written history).

Society does not respect women. And no man is an island.

[quote RootyT00t]@Pumperthepumper when and where you like. What you cant do is twist events to suit agendas and agree with campaigns and protests which have been vetoed by the people who are actually the victims, not the people who have made it about them.[/quote]
This.

Pumper
You keep asking ‘When and where?’
The answer. Not today. Not this weekend. Not this afternoon on Mother’s Day. Not in Sarah’s name. Her family & friends do not want to be associated with this. They have said so.

Pumper
You keep asking ‘When and where?’
The answer. Not today. Not this weekend. Not this afternoon on Mother’s Day. Not in Sarah’s name. Her family & friends do not want to be associated with this. They have said so.

And that’s fair. But if we leave it another week, that’s another three women dead. At some point we will have to have this conversation.

Regardless of the % of men that do respect women, a majority of those men will not actively call out sexism when it happens in front of them, be it sexist banter and jokes or inappropriate behaviour, they will stand by and say nothing.

Pumperthepumper

manipulation to what end? What is this manipulation? What’s the agenda?

Why are you all asking this as if you don't know?

Hijacking what has happened to push the agenda of feminism, as is clear as day on these threads.

Holy fucking shit.

Hijacking to push the agenda of feminism? Highlighting and fighting the sexist patterns of actions by men against women IS the agenda of feminism! Whether that's a horrific stranger murder like this one, or the murder of a woman by her partner in their own home, or the uneven distribution of unpaid labour and the financial and power imbalances it leads to, or the favouring of male voices over female, or the men who believe they are entitled to unknown women's attention, or the men who send death and rape threats to women who disagree with them, or the fact that men are considered competent until proven otherwise and it's the opposite for women, or the men who assume the woman on the team will sort out the room bookings and take notes, or the men who say it doesn't matter the board is all men because they can imagine what women think as well...

IT
IS
ALL
LINKED

*You keep asking ‘When and where?’
The answer. Not today. Not this weekend. Not this afternoon on Mother’s Day. Not in Sarah’s name. Her family & friends do not want to be associated with this. They have said so

Spiked online have run one article by a “friend” of Sarah. You extrapolated the rest.

You know what shouldn’t happen this weekend?

#namalt

@Blibbyblobby

Pumperthepumper

manipulation to what end? What is this manipulation? What’s the agenda?

Why are you all asking this as if you don't know?

Hijacking what has happened to push the agenda of feminism, as is clear as day on these threads.

Holy fucking shit.

Hijacking to push the agenda of feminism? Highlighting and fighting the sexist patterns of actions by men against women IS the agenda of feminism! Whether that's a horrific stranger murder like this one, or the murder of a woman by her partner in their own home, or the uneven distribution of unpaid labour and the financial and power imbalances it leads to, or the favouring of male voices over female, or the men who believe they are entitled to unknown women's attention, or the men who send death and rape threats to women who disagree with them, or the fact that men are considered competent until proven otherwise and it's the opposite for women, or the men who assume the woman on the team will sort out the room bookings and take notes, or the men who say it doesn't matter the board is all men because they can imagine what women think as well...

IT
IS
ALL
LINKED

Have you read the posts clearly explaining it to you that Sarah's family do not want the case connected with any of those conversations, protects or campaigns?

@SmileEachDay

*You keep asking ‘When and where?’ The answer. Not today. Not this weekend. Not this afternoon on Mother’s Day. Not in Sarah’s name. Her family & friends do not want to be associated with this. They have said so

Spiked online have run one article by a “friend” of Sarah. You extrapolated the rest.

You know what shouldn’t happen this weekend?

#namalt

So now we are disbelieving the words of s grieving family because we know better, are we?

Are there no depths?

Have I missed a statement by her family Root?

@pumperthepumper

We are all agreed in keeping women safe, I am far from coy.

The agenda is bulldozing our way through the issue, all women are right and all men are wrong, silly posters like the one above appointing themselves aj authority to explain to us in a patronising way what NAMALT is, assuming we can't have our own opinions because we dare to see the issue deeper than women good and men bad, and generally just pushing the aggressive feminist line in a murdered woman's name. That's the agenda.

I notice you ignored my post about why a well known murdered woman is not on that list, but a child abducted and murdered in the 90s is (I'm sure that will really help the family who have dealt with suicides and drink addictions since).

Why?

@SmileEachDay

Have I missed a statement by her family Root?

I think words from her friend is enough.

Funnily enough I don't imagine within a weekend of her murder they fancied having to tell people not to protest at her vigil.

You know what shouldn’t happen this weekend?
#namalt

Tell that to the organiser of today’s event: ‘ReclaimTheseStreets.’ In her interview last night she said: (Quote) ‘It’s not all men we know that’

Have you read the posts clearly explaining it to you that Sarah's family do not want the case connected with any of those conversations, protects or campaigns?

I'm sure they didn't want her to be killed in the first place. My heart breaks for them.

But let's be honest. You are not mentioning this out of empathy for the family, but because it furthers your own agenda.

The posters on here who think themselves better than us NAMAlTErs also say that.

Read through the posts. They all rail about NAMALT, speak down to us, insult is, congratulate each other on how clever they are but somewhere in their long winded posts they will say 'no one is saying it is all men, rooty. We have sons and husbands'.

@SmileEachDay

Have I missed a statement by her family Root?

An article written by her friend linked upthread.

@Blibbyblobby

Have you read the posts clearly explaining it to you that Sarah's family do not want the case connected with any of those conversations, protects or campaigns?

I'm sure they didn't want her to be killed in the first place. My heart breaks for them.

But let's be honest. You are not mentioning this out of empathy for the family, but because it furthers your own agenda.

Incorrect, I'm afraid. Nice try though.

My agenda is purely that I disagree with the behaviour of some posters.

Not strong enough to overpower my outrage about a woman murdered, I'm afraid.

@Blibbyblobby

Have you read the posts clearly explaining it to you that Sarah's family do not want the case connected with any of those conversations, protects or campaigns?

I'm sure they didn't want her to be killed in the first place. My heart breaks for them.

But let's be honest. You are not mentioning this out of empathy for the family, but because it furthers your own agenda.

Your theory would only work if I was trying to shut down the conversation.

I'm clearly not.

It's pretty disgusting to claim that I am pleased about the wishes of a grieving family because it suits me, but nothing surprises me on MN anymore when things don't go people's way.

Morning all.

Popped back and I see the following points are still doing the rounds -

1. I think that the backlash occurs when all men are considered capable of murder, rape etc because of the above.

PLEASE can one of those going on about this show me where anyone has said it's all men? Because no one has and it's getting boring now.

1. "Why now? Why are you all getting angry now?

So many posters have talked of their life experience as a woman and how they've been hurt by -hang on, let me qualify that NAMALT - men. WE ARE SICK AND TIRED OF IT. I'm feeling the rage and pain of a million women this week and as someone who should maybe have done more before I've reached a tipping point.

Does that shed some light for those of you who seem a bit tone deaf or have difficulty reading?

Incorrect, I'm afraid. Nice try though.

My agenda is purely that I disagree with the behaviour of some posters.

Not strong enough to overpower my outrage about a woman murdered, I'm afraid.

I'm outraged about this woman murdered. And the ones before her, and the ones after her, and the many other structural inequalities that lead to this.

So I hope you will forgive me if I respectfully disbelieve your statement. Because if you can think "it's not the right time, this murder is not the same thing, there's no connection between why this man murdered a woman and why another man murdered a woman" then you are not outraged enough.

IT
IS
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LINKED