To think that most men do respect women

[katieloves]

I’m concerned about the vilification of men that we’re hearing a lot about. I know there’s some men who disrespect women and this absolutely needs to stop, but equally I’ve witnessed women being equally disrespectful to men. I’ve seen plenty of women feeling up men etc. on a night out and it being laughed off. If this was reversed it would be considered assault. It feels like all men are being accused of treating women badly and I just don’t see it.

I also wonder how the victims family feel about all this maybe its their feelings at the moment we should be most concerned about , after all this directly affects them

I agree with this wholeheartedly. It is distressing to think that her family and friends are all being dragged into this particular circus.

Sarah Everard's family and friends are grieving and have been caught up in a whirlwind not of their making, they are shocked, confused, angry and in an ideal world should not have to deal with the perceived politicisation of their personal tragedy.

The problem here is that while it may be "unlucky" to be abducted and murdered by a strange man, it happens often enough not to be by chance. Similarly, the idea that he shouldn't have been there doing this horrible thing is quite correct. However, much of the politicisation has happened because as soon as women just started talking to each other via social media, etc, they were chided and the NAMALT started.

So many women abused by women in all contexts, strangers and those they know or are intimate with alike, have their experiences dismissed, minimised and are refused justice - this has given them a reason to share and expose this, and if this has become a political issue, I really don't think that was the agenda of the majority. If this event in its entirety brings a spotlight on the fact that women's safety and progress are still hampered by the attitude of men (and some women) it is a positive thing.

The main tragedy is that it came too late for Sarah.

And if there hadn't been quite a few people openly saying that she shouldn't have been out alone as well, and the police hadn't suggested women stay at home, rather than putting out the message that maybe everyone should police their behaviour, in the interests of equality, or that "Men - we are watching you" maybe some of the less savoury aspects of all this could have been avoided.

@Whenthesunshines

I also wonder how the victims family feel about all this maybe its their feelings at the moment we should be most concerned about , after all this directly affects them

I agree with this wholeheartedly. It is distressing to think that her family and friends are all being dragged into this particular circus.

Just seen the images from the protests. Her poor family

Jbon I lived in Singapore for about two years. I felt very safe there.

I don't usually feel safe here in the UK. I've spoken to my husband and he walks and runs at night and never feels afraid. I think many men just have no idea.

Oh for an edit button - "Women abused by men in all contexts" Doh.

And if there hadn't been quite a few people openly saying that she shouldn't have been out alone as well, and the police hadn't suggested women stay at home, rather than putting out the message that maybe everyone should police their behaviour, in the interests of equality, or that "Men - we are watching you" maybe some of the less savoury aspects of all this could have been avoided.

You are so so right.
As I said a few minutes ago: Sarah was doing exactly what she should have been doing. She was in the right place at the right time. She should have been safe going about her daily business.
Her murderer is the one who should not have been there. Not Sarah.
She did nothing wrong. She was extremely unlucky to cross paths with this man when she did.

Yes. The message should be 'We are watching you'. Women should not have to change their behaviour. This was the attitude of police in the Yorkshire Ripper case. 'Women stay at home.' The perspective is all wrong.

Never in a million years would the police lead a "men, we are watching you" campaign due a mix of institutionalised misogyny and backlash from men.

Ironic really considering that's basically the 'hate crime' strap line they went with about people posting opinions online.

@Italiangreyhound

Jbon I lived in Singapore for about two years. I felt very safe there.

I don't usually feel safe here in the UK. I've spoken to my husband and he walks and runs at night and never feels afraid. I think many men just have no idea.

Interesting point. I lived in Brazil for a year when I was younger and experienced a lot more frightening behaviour from men in that one year than in the rest of my life put together. By quite a way. Not only greater in frequency, but also in intensity. Mainly being followed and men insisting on you accepting their company. Thank god I was never alone with any of these. It happened on a few occasions that hotel staff gave out my room number to blokes who expressed an interest in me as they thought it was romantic.

Funnily enough, based on my experiences I’m unsurprised that Brazil has quite a problem with serious violence against women.

These things are cultural, which is why it’s frustrating to read people dismissing this as just a freak incident. It also means they could be changed if there was the will to do so.

The majority do respect women, yes.

But they have been conditioned from birth to believe that male is superior to female. That men are bosses and women are subordinates. That women are crap drivers. That it will be their female partner who has to give up work or take time off to bring up their children.

They are almost all physically larger and stronger than women. And if you are theoretically able to physically dominate someone else, then you tend to believe that you are superior to them.

We still have a long way to go, don't we?

even many of the “good ones” have a subconscious mild disrespect for women

This is not to say these kind of men aren’t gentlemen and very nice, loving husbands etc, but it’s always there

I'm sorry, but men who respect women do exist. They may or may not be a minority, but you absolutely cannot prejudge that 'it's always there'.

I’ve been assaulted by men who I thought were nice guys.

I love my partner but how many women have said that about their husbands before finding out otherwise? I have PTSD because of all the shit I have to deal with because of assaults. It’s hard to trust and I still have some capacity to.

However the news and statistics are beyond manageable anymore for my own anxiety. And I suspect for many others too. Women need some protection - men are doing this and it isn’t going to stop unless something absolutely radical about it. So all the #NotAllMen and their supporters need to do something about it rather than shout that it’s unfair on them.

Women have been screaming about it for time immemorial.

If someone was laying in the road would a good man step over them saying “Not my fault?”

@MistressoftheDarkSide

Sarah Everard's family and friends are grieving and have been caught up in a whirlwind not of their making, they are shocked, confused, angry and in an ideal world should not have to deal with the perceived politicisation of their personal tragedy.

The problem here is that while it may be "unlucky" to be abducted and murdered by a strange man, it happens often enough not to be by chance. Similarly, the idea that he shouldn't have been there doing this horrible thing is quite correct. However, much of the politicisation has happened because as soon as women just started talking to each other via social media, etc, they were chided and the NAMALT started.

So many women abused by women in all contexts, strangers and those they know or are intimate with alike, have their experiences dismissed, minimised and are refused justice - this has given them a reason to share and expose this, and if this has become a political issue, I really don't think that was the agenda of the majority. If this event in its entirety brings a spotlight on the fact that women's safety and progress are still hampered by the attitude of men (and some women) it is a positive thing.

The main tragedy is that it came too late for Sarah.

And if there hadn't been quite a few people openly saying that she shouldn't have been out alone as well, and the police hadn't suggested women stay at home, rather than putting out the message that maybe everyone should police their behaviour, in the interests of equality, or that "Men - we are watching you" maybe some of the less savoury aspects of all this could have been avoided.

Let's not pretend that this has t happened before, won't happen again and that women talking on social media is somehow going to be a world changing thing to stop any women being killed and us NAMAlTers could have prevented that.

What a load of absolute nonsense.

[quote katieloves]@ReceptacleForTheRespectable
Why should we have to be nice in order to convince them we deserve to be treated as equal humans

Seriously? This thought process says a lot about you. Do you not see that in order to be treated with respect you have to give respect? If you’re nasty to someone they’ll probably be nasty back, man or woman.[/quote]
In the real world, yes.

On MN if you suggest that, youl be accused of telling the women to be nicer to the men assaulting them. These guys have lost all logic and perspective.

@ReceptacleForTheRespectable

Misandry being taken as seriously as misogny

Misogyny is endemic, institutional, and leads to the deaths of 2 women every week in the UK at the hands of men, countless more rapes (62,000 a year even if you just count the reported ones) and sexual assaults. Worldwide, a foetus is more likely to be aborted if female, and a newborn is more likely to be killed if female. The pay gap, the pension gap. Women are significantly more likely to suffer and be seriously injured due to domestic violence.....

And misandry? Is that really as serious? Given that men have been the oppressor sex for millennia, and still are? Misandry is neither endemic nor institutional. It's in the same category as "racism against white people".

No it isn't.

I have a genuine question.

Why now? Sarah Everard is appalling, tragic, horrendous. We know that.

But murders in the streets are very rare as we know, but why was there not this absolute outpouring previously?
Or are we now in an age where a certain type of person will manipulate this event to shoehorn their own views?

@RootyT00t

I have a genuine question.

Why now? Sarah Everard is appalling, tragic, horrendous. We know that.

But murders in the streets are very rare as we know, but why was there not this absolute outpouring previously?
Or are we now in an age where a certain type of person will manipulate this event to shoehorn their own views?

@RootyT00t

Sure, that’s a ‘genuine’ question when you’re using words like ‘manipulation’ but here we go anyway:

I don’t know. I don’t know what it is that triggers mass horror in particular events. I don’t know why it was specifically George Floyd’s death that kicked off BLM. I don’t know why it was one complaint by Julia H-B that kicked off #MeToo.

But I have a theory. I think we feel the true horror when we realise how easily that could have been us. I’ve walked home loads of times on my own in the dark, when a taxi hasn’t turned up or a train was late. I’ve walked with my keys in my hand and phoned my husband to say I’m on the way, and not walked with headphones in, and crossed the road to avoid anyone who might be a threat. Everything Sarah Everard did.

But wider than that, for context, I’m a runner - I have a ‘curfew’ (if you like) during six months of the year when it’s too dark for me to go out alone. I can’t run my normal route just now because three men have been harassing women runners (no males so far) at a particular point in the route. One of them occasionally wears a clown mask. The police are looking for them but that’s been weeks now and still no arrests.

So I run in a park. But part of the park involves a loop through a very secluded woodland, at the top of a hill. So I’m tired when I get there and I’m always wary that if someone did jump out, I’d be too slow to get away, I’d be too tired to get up any speed.

There are probably twelve different running routes I could take round here and every single one of them involves some kind of underpass, secluded area or tunnel.

This is a tiny snapshot into the life of the average woman - I haven’t talked about being felt up on public transport, or assaulted at work or cat called or leered at in my school uniform or the time a man in a supermarket leaned over me to reach something and pressed his erection into my back.

Women are just sick of it. I’m absolutely sick of not being able to run, just go for a run! without having to watch myself. It’s exhausting and I’m so angry about it.

This is a huge post now so I’ll finish by saying - there is literally no downside to tackling the problem of male violence. It will massively help men too if that’s your concern, absolutely nobody loses if we as a society sort it out.

Can’t wait for your considered, thoughtful response to this post.

why was there not this absolute outpouring previously?

Social media.
‘Let’s protest’ ‘let’s hold a vigil’

Once the word gets out on social media it spreads like wildfire. Instant communication like this didn’t exist in the past so rallies, protests, mass gatherings were organised over a period of time.
Nowadays things happen very quickly.

When certain social media groups take an interest they can quickly hijack as we saw yesterday. Their organisers shepherding their followers like sheep.

The outrage was there in the past and expressed in a different way.

I’ve just looked at the front covers of today’s papers. The editions I have seen have ignored the police clashes with these groups. Good.

@Whenthesunshines

why was there not this absolute outpouring previously?

Social media.
‘Let’s protest’ ‘let’s hold a vigil’

Once the word gets out on social media it spreads like wildfire. Instant communication like this didn’t exist in the past so rallies, protests, mass gatherings were organised over a period of time.
Nowadays things happen very quickly.

When certain social media groups take an interest they can quickly hijack as we saw yesterday. Their organisers shepherding their followers like sheep.

The outrage was there in the past and expressed in a different way.

I’ve just looked at the front covers of today’s papers. The editions I have seen have ignored the police clashes with these groups. Good.

Why ‘good’?

I agree with this Pumper - and have the same issue with running. My favourite route in my city is looping down through some woods and along a cycle track.

Same issue with female runners being harassed. Same issue with it being too dark.
Same issue with having to consider if I’ll be fast enough to get away.

I’m so sick of it.

The very ordinary nature of Sarah Everard’s route home, the normal evening she’d had...has I think turned her into “everywoman”.

Male violence has to be addressed. It’s got to stop.

Or are we now in an age where a certain type of person will manipulate this event to shoehorn their own views?

Who do you mean and what “views” do you think are being shoehorned in?

Why ‘good’?

Did you read my post? You quoted it.

When certain social media groups take an interest they can quickly hijack as we saw yesterday. Their organisers shepherding their followers like sheep.
I’ve just looked at the front covers of today’s papers. The editions I have seen have ignored the police clashes with these groups. Good.

Their behaviour yesterday was typical of their agenda driven nonsense. They politicised what was meant to be a peaceful vigil with their banners and slogans and drums.

I’m sure that if you open today’s papers their antics are there for all to see but I’m glad they didn’t make front page news.

Stating the fact that almost all violence against others is perpetrated by men is interpreted as 'man bashing'. Its not man bashing it is a fact.

Who does this stuff, stuff that happens all the time and is accepted as normal in our society:

Fighting in a pub
Punching someone randomly on the street
Mugging someone with a weapon
Shouting aggressively at others on the street
Murdering their partner in their own home

It's men.

Yes, someone on this thread will have seen a woman do some of these things here and there.
But let's be honest, it is men bringing this violence into our society, with both men and women as the victims.

This has to be framed as a problem that men are at the heart of.

Who do you mean and what “views” do you think are being shoehorned in?

Who was there last night Smile ?
Didn’t you see the banners? It’s plain to see who was there and who ‘she means.’

Where

What “agenda” do you think is being pushed?