To think that most men do respect women

[katieloves]

I’m concerned about the vilification of men that we’re hearing a lot about. I know there’s some men who disrespect women and this absolutely needs to stop, but equally I’ve witnessed women being equally disrespectful to men. I’ve seen plenty of women feeling up men etc. on a night out and it being laughed off. If this was reversed it would be considered assault. It feels like all men are being accused of treating women badly and I just don’t see it.

but I think it is so important for him to understand his privilege and the struggles that women face that he will never have to deal with
And do you also discuss with him the privilege that women have? That women can chose to have abortions and end an unwanted pregnancy, a man can't.

That if he opted to pick a career in slow income,he would fi d it much harder to find a better off woman to marry him? That he will still be expected by many to open doors for her and that he will have to think twice about sacking a totally incompetent employee if she's pregnant because it will automatically be assumed that he wants to get rid of her because of the pregnancy rather than her poor work ethics.

Why does everything has to be considered in silos, men vs women? Why not talk about the difficulties that everyone can experience.

I'm raise my children to have respect for all individuals and to judge those only who do them harm directly.

My two sons are the most respectful of women because they see them as individuals, not their different gender.

Except they’re not. Which is the whole point of this thread.

None of us are saying all men are like that. Despite having endured years of people bleating about NAMALT we have never been saying that.

We’re saying too many men are like that. We’re saying that 97% of women have experienced sexual harassment which means we can safely say it’s not just a couple of bad apples doing the harassing. We’re saying we should be able to have a conversation about this huge and awful problem without it being derailed by people insisting that the most important thing at all times is to reassure men that we know they aren’t all like that. We’re saying that all men, whether actively hostile to women or not, are raised in a society which prioritises their safety, wellbeing and happiness over that of women.

You are doing no one a favour except rapists when you won’t allow conversations about male violence to happen without derailing it with concerns about whether they are upsetting to men.

Yes sure they do in front of you. Meanwhile with mates they are watching porn, rating girls using foul language.
I have 2 DD’s and they say every single boy they know dies this
What a sad sad use of the world. I can say with absolute certainty that my two sons have never done that because they'd find no satisfaction in doing so. Your daughter needs to hang around better role models.

@Goawayquickly

Some of the things my daughter tells me about the teenage boys she knows make me so sad and angry. I have no doubt their parents think they're lovely young men.

This has been my experience. From creepy men sitting next to her on the bus to boys from the 'nice' schools screaming filth at her and her friend walking home from school.

Only last weekend she was cornered at a bus stop by a middle aged man. Despite our chats about how to get away from these situations, she just froze until the bus arrived.

My youngest dd is just about start secondary school - and the sad thing is I know she's going to face this too.

As did I
As did my mum
Probably her mum before her

I'm feeling quite down about it at the moment.

Even nice respectful men join in the banter amongst their friends and don’t call it out. I’ve seen things my husband has been Sent and also heard my DS say things and receive things also. I have spoken at length but as a teen he isn’t going to call out his mates. I suspect that’s the case for many. Until men call out other men this will continue.

[quote katieloves]@TheWaif the men I know including my 16 year old ds and his friends 100% respect women.[/quote]
I'm afraid you really don't know that.

@dontdisturbmenow

but I think it is so important for him to understand his privilege and the struggles that women face that he will never have to deal with And do you also discuss with him the privilege that women have? That women can chose to have abortions and end an unwanted pregnancy, a man can't.

That if he opted to pick a career in slow income,he would fi d it much harder to find a better off woman to marry him? That he will still be expected by many to open doors for her and that he will have to think twice about sacking a totally incompetent employee if she's pregnant because it will automatically be assumed that he wants to get rid of her because of the pregnancy rather than her poor work ethics.

Why does everything has to be considered in silos, men vs women? Why not talk about the difficulties that everyone can experience.

I'm raise my children to have respect for all individuals and to judge those only who do them harm directly.

My two sons are the most respectful of women because they see them as individuals, not their different gender.

Jesus, heaven forbid a woman have autonomy over her own body.

I don't know where to start with this. I'm sorry, a man can't choose to be in a low paid career because his wife is less likely to be a higher earner? WELL WHY IS THAT for starters, but wtf, who even thinks like this?

Do female bosses not have the same concerns around underperforming pregnant employees?

What a ridiculous post.

Well my DH, DS and BILs ,Friends DHs are respectful and kind .However as I only know about 30 men in total ,there is a big margin for several men to be absolute arseholes!Unless you live under a rock ,do you not watch the News/read the papers/go on the internet? Its like saying I have a lovely calm dog and so do all my friends too. Doesnt mean there are no dog attacks /snappy /aggressive dogs!

You are doing no one a favour except rapists when you won’t allow conversations about male violence to happen without derailing it with concerns about whether they are upsetting to men
Oh so now you give favours to rapists if you don't agree with the move that all men should feel responsible for the horrors inflicted by a very small proportion of their gender?

As said before, change the conversation to put the word black instead of men and threads would be put down immediately and posters banned.

Can we just stop being prejudiced against everyone we choose to put into one category?

Not ALL men are being accused of treating women badly; women are just highlighting, AGAIN, that people who harass / insult / hold back women from getting ahead in their careers / don't pay male and female colleages the same for the same job / assault / kill women are predominantly men, and it's long past the time that this was addressed and stopped.

Unfortunately, I would also have to say that, in my own personal experience, I woud struggle to name one man who respects women. If we ignore the more extreme end of the spectrum (misogynists, open discrimination and violence against women), the 'less' damaging every-day actions that indicate a lack of respect are still there. Even men I've known for years who I generally think are good people, will let slip the odd sexist remark that they would think is just a bit of harmless fun.

I have had men who, I think, certainly respect my skills in the workplace, but that respect doesn't transfer to women in general - it doesn't stop them chatting up the -very young, inexperience and therefore vulnerable - work experience girl, cheating on their wives, speaking over other women in meetings, making inappropriate / offensive / sexist remarks etc., etc.

And since you've felt the need to trot out the tripe about women can behave badly too, I will rise to the bait and respond - yes, women can behave badly, and if any woman sexually assaulted someone in the way you describe, it is a crime. However, as has been pointed out on the many other threads lately (in response to those complaining about "what about poor men" when a woman tries to stand up for herself or fellow women), more often than not, men are physically stronger and more able to ward off an attack from women. They are also more likely to be belived than a 'hysterial' woman and more likely to be listened to in a work environment. Pointing this out is not vilifying all men. It is bringing to attention the MASSIVE inequality in our society. Should we stop talking about that? Absolutely not. We should be SHOUTING IT FROM THE ROOFTOPS!

Even nice respectful men join in the banter amongst their friends and don’t call it out. I’ve seen things my husband has been Sent and also heard my DS say things and receive things also. I have spoken at length but as a teen he isn’t going to call out his mates. I suspect that’s the case for many. Until men call out other men this will continue.

This is my experience too. Not all men are rapist but I would say ALL have engaged in misogynistic "banter" at some point in their lives and that's where it starts. I remember being quite shocked when my otherwise lovely, mild mannered, respectful BIL called Rihanna a "slut" for some reason or another. I can't remember why, it was about a decade ago, but the fact he just wrote her off like that and diminished her worth as she wasn't the "right" sort of woman in his eyes, made me see him in a different light.

@dontdisturbmenow

You are doing no one a favour except rapists when you won’t allow conversations about male violence to happen without derailing it with concerns about whether they are upsetting to men Oh so now you give favours to rapists if you don't agree with the move that all men should feel responsible for the horrors inflicted by a very small proportion of their gender?

As said before, change the conversation to put the word black instead of men and threads would be put down immediately and posters banned.

Can we just stop being prejudiced against everyone we choose to put into one category?

Well I’m surprised it took four pages for someone to make the thoroughly offensive race analogy, but here it is, predictable as ever.

@Twintub

Even nice respectful men join in the banter amongst their friends and don’t call it out. I’ve seen things my husband has been Sent and also heard my DS say things and receive things also. I have spoken at length but as a teen he isn’t going to call out his mates. I suspect that’s the case for many. Until men call out other men this will continue.

This is it. And all the men who spend time saying and posting ''namalt'' etc, have they spent any time calling out crude misogynist ''jokes'' in the locker room? The NAMALT brigade are the least likely to stand up and say that was out of order/offensive/sexist to other men.

a man can't choose to be in a low paid career because his wife is less likely to be a higher earner? WELL WHY IS THAT for starters, but wtf, who even thinks like this?
Very interesting as you cchose to interpret my words. I didn't say at all that women were less likely to earn well than her partner. I said that a man is less likely to attract a woman if he is on a very low income than his counterpart who earns 5 times more.

@katieloves

I’m amazed at these responses. I raise my dd to respect herself and others (male and female) just as I do my ds. I don’t raise her to be afraid of men, it’s never crossed my mind to.

Then count yourself lucky op that its never occurred to you. I too am lucky to have not been on the receiving end of male violence and have had been fortunate to have had nice men in my life.

That doesn't mean when I was younger that I wasn't on the receiving end of harassment and I was lucky that nothing really bad happened to me when trying to get home on nights out. Looking back there were several occasions where it could have turned nasty and all women I know have those stories to tell.

I wouldn't just assume your ds is respectful, hopefully he is but I have listened in to some conversations my ds17 has on Xbox with his friends some of whom I've known since primary school. I've been disappointed to hear how they talk about girls, my ds is quiet and was always kind and soft hearted, he often goes with the flow not saying much, although his brother has heard him joining in when he was a bit younger.
We have had several conversations about how he should be challenging this narrative which he does but not all the time as he has now earned the nickname pc and feels he is viewed as a bit of a kill joy. I'm sure all these boys mums, some of whom I know, would think their boys are respectful too.

@SecretSpAD and that is what we all need to do, and also we need to respond to the people saying those things it is not appropriate rather than not just engaging with them.

But I am sure a group of girls on social media can also be objectifying men, so in all fairness that should be pulled up too.

It is important that we do teach our sons how women have been treated in the past and how it was treated as acceptable but that it isn’t and it should never have been like that. And that it still has huge ramifications now in how women can be viewed, and that some men still believe that women don’t need to be treated with respect in all areas of life, and he needs to challenge it if he sees it happening.

Even nice respectful men join in the banter amongst their friends and don’t call it out
And women come and bitch about men, undermining them and building generalisations on public forums.

Of course the latter is not deemed disrespectful at all!

I think it's the opposite actually.

Men who show and feel true respect are the minority. Possibly rare if we could see into their minds.

Spend a month on online dating... you'll see.--

Be an attractive woman in a nightclub with FF boobs... you'll see.

Be the only female apprentice at the lunch table... you'll see.

Even my ex-partner, who I'd probably say has the most "respect" out of all the men I've ever dated, was generally kind and lovely and would do anything for me... still hated, and I mean hated, the fact that short and thin (and generally weak) police women dared to exist.

I think I know one man (my stepdad) who I can say hand on heart and to the best of my knowledge respects women.

It's fucking sad when you think about it.

@MsMiaWallace

Is it possibly generational experience? Through my time. Unfortunately I would say that the majority of men I've known, met, seen etc have been abusive to women in one way or another. I'm in my 30s now.

Same, including the “nice” ones.

Imagine the patriarchy is a big pot of boiling water and men are lobsters. They all get chucked in. Even the ones who escape are still scorched and burned by it. That’s to say, even the nicest, well meaning men have still grown up in a society that tells them women aren’t equal to them and sexualises them rather than presenting them as equal humans. So no, no man is free of the effect of that.

And do you also discuss with him the privilege that women have? That women can chose to have abortions and end an unwanted pregnancy, a man can't.

You’re aware that in many countries, including supposedly developed ones like the US, men are making laws to remove the rights of women to make these decisions about their own bodies? Is this something you’d actively support?

I used to barmaid many years ago. I suspect the partners and mothers of many of the men I encountered there would have been horrified by what their respectable men thought and said outside the confines of what is deemed acceptable.

Dh said men in work had been laughing at the idea of men having a 6pm curfew. Dh gets it. 'Did you pull him on it?'
'No. He's an idiot anyway. '

And that's the problem. Namalt, whatever, but not enough decent men challenge the tossers.

I've been teaching a long time. Sadly, I would say the boys who are genuinely respectful of women are few and far between. Many men think being respectful is opening a door or not touching someone. It's more than that.

I said that a man is less likely to attract a woman if he is on a very low income than his counterpart who earns 5 times more.
Why is that? Why are men less attractive to women if they are low earners?
The answer is clear.

Actually at @dontdisturbmenow it was hard to understand what you were trying to say given the way it was worded and the typos but here are your words:

*That if he opted to pick a career in slow income,he would fi d it much harder to find a better off woman to marry him?
*
So it could be read either way. But you've basically now turned round and said that women won't marry men who earn less than them. Poor men, nasty money grabbing women, eh?! Wtf, it never enters my mind what a potential partner earns.

But I am sure a group of girls on social media can also be objectifying men, so in all fairness that should be pulled up too
Of course they do too. Talk of how good a kisser they are or not, the size of their male organs and more.

@HeathIns

I said that a man is less likely to attract a woman if he is on a very low income than his counterpart who earns 5 times more. Why is that? Why are men less attractive to women if they are low earners? The answer is clear.

tell us then?