To think that most men do respect women

[katieloves]

I’m concerned about the vilification of men that we’re hearing a lot about. I know there’s some men who disrespect women and this absolutely needs to stop, but equally I’ve witnessed women being equally disrespectful to men. I’ve seen plenty of women feeling up men etc. on a night out and it being laughed off. If this was reversed it would be considered assault. It feels like all men are being accused of treating women badly and I just don’t see it.

How do we know which are the nice ones that 100% respect women and which are the ones that are not? If you could explain starting with the following examples:

• man walking behind me when I’m alone in the dark? Nasty or nice?
• man sat next to me on the bus in the middle of the day? Nasty or nice?
• man offering me a lift when I’m walking and it’s chucking it down? Nasty or nice?
• man offering to buy me a drink in a bar? Nasty or nice?

These are just off the top of my head all situations that I have been sexually harassed in and also at other times been in the same situation and not sexually harassed.

Once you’ve helped us all to understand how to identify which are the good-uns that 100% respect women we can all stop with the ‘vilification’ of men and get on with just vilifying the abusive ones.

I don’t hate my son. He struggles with being a decent human being, as we all do.

Family life means you have to support people who have all kinds of issues and problems.

I’m amazed at these responses. I raise my dd to respect herself and others (male and female) just as I do my ds. I don’t raise her to be afraid of men, it’s never crossed my mind to.

I am in my 30s ( old millennial) and most men I know and plenty who post online dont respect women

Do they murder us? - not any I know nor have they committed acts of violence to my knowledge.

• But they watch a lot of pornography ( hardcore porn is now just porn) despite knowing that women are likely doing that under duress and sexual assaults have been filmed without consent and packaged as porn
• #metoo was highly minimised as "putting your self in that position
• plenty of women shouldn't wear revealing clothing/ flirt with me they are going to sleep with etc etc
• women who enjoy sex and different sexual partners are sluts
• men harassing women stories that hit the press are questioned about what the women did
• plenty of dull sexist jokes 'while you're down there love' 'nagging wives' 'women in the kitchen
• the hundred of thousands of men who don't pull their weight at he because they see it as women's work

I could go on and I'm sure they are loads I've forgotten.

Men may not rape, kill or hurt us on mass, but I've yet to see very few who respect us.

Thats the tweet.... Respect women? #notallmen

Define respect OP. I suspect you and I have very different views on what respecting women means.

@Carolina24

Of course we don’t hate our sons - stupid, offensive, derailing comment.

But Carolina, all men are misogynistic, violent, sex mad, raping murderers. What’s to like?

Except they’re not. Which is the whole point of this thread.

Even if most men do, that's not the point.

@debbiegotthejobandwelldone you feel sorry for women who are angry at the rape and murder of women?

I don’t believe men as a whole are bad people, I have a partner and sons (as well as a daughter). I really hope I’m raising them to be good people. But I’ll not pretend for a second that women aren’t being targeted by men as a sex daily for harassment, violence and murder. Men can stand up for themselves.

I would go as far as saying very few men truly respect women

To add, there are few men I respect. It goes both ways.

Who do you think ARE raising their DC to fear men, OP, and in what ways?

For those who use Reddit check out r/niceguys or r/creepypms to see how people message each other these days

It seems there’s a lot of people out there that think respecting women means not raping, assaulting or killing them. It’s a pretty low bar and a misleading one at that.

Considering how many women are in abusive relationships or are on the receiving end of sexual harassment this unfortunately cannot be true. The reality is men, like women, are different things to different people.

Your friend’s lovely ex went on to rape someone else, the guy you chat to in the kitchen at work abuses his wife etc.

@katieloves, I have a similar aged boy and working hard to ensure he is respectful but he tells me of conversations with other boys at school and it is shocking. These are "nice" boys, well mannered, academic and polite but by secondary school years they seem to have developed a disrespect for women.

Female relatives, late teens/young adults talk about the attitude of boys/men towards them in social settings and it seems way worse than when I was younger. One young women refuses to go out without a male in her friendship group due to the predatory nature of other men who find it acceptable to grope women. It is widespread. I didn't know the extent of it as they assumed it was the same for my generation.

In my job I get to see the extent of male usage of porn/visits to sex workers, it is widespread and very often the quiet family men.
I have brothers and thought everyone was like them but my life experience is changing my view.

I would talk to your son about conversations he hears, it maybe so ingrained that he doesn't consider it unusual. Manners and politeness may mask disrespect so it can be confusing.

I suspectb if you were privy to your 16 year olds conversations with his mates you might think otherwise.

I happened to come home unexpectedly when my then 16 year old adopted son was talking to some mates. There were plenty of "jokes" about rape, scoring the girls at school in terms of how hot they were, just complete and utter lack of respect for girls and women.

We had words. It was when we pointed out how he would feel if boys were saying that about his sister that he got it. He's not perfect, he is a normal 18 year old lad who still slips up, but he has improved.

My son is a caring, loving young man....and yet, he slips up. It's endemic in male society - the jokes, the banter, the comments about boobs, legs, bums....it is a short journey from banter to touching, from touching to groping.

All women I know are frightened of going out at night alone. No man I know is. That's the difference.

Women are never to blame for men's choices to abuse them. The ball is in the men's court now. They have to collectively clean up their act.

As for my son, he's a work in progress, but I have high hopes for him.

@ChancesWhatChances I enjoy telling them exactly what I think of them from time to time.

Just for our entertainment, here are some screenshots of a conversation I had with a chauvinist pig man in his mid 30s on tinder last year. Thing is, in my experience so many men are like this and don't think they're sexist.

I think many women and posts on MN are misandrist .

I think both men and women are very controlling in their very own ways, both believe their way is innocent and the other a sin.

probably some truth in there

@twelly

I think many women and posts on MN are misandrist .

that's the understatement of the century

I suspect if you were privy to your 16 year olds conversations with his mates you might think otherwise.
And daughter’s.

I think the "good eggs" need to tackle the bad ones. You know the domestic abusers, cat callers, harassers of women who are just out minding their own business. Until the "good eggs" take positive action, they're just as complicit in the treatment of women as the perpetrators. Positive action is not glossing over inappropriate discussions as boys will be boys, but instead calling out the crap.

I've had my fair share of harassment from males. Some very lovely men have helped me out of positions that shouldn't have existed in the first place. One that comes to kind I was out at a place I went to regulary, a stranger comes up to me and insists he's coming home with me - I'm not a wallflower and told the arsehole to fuck off. A man I didn't know (a friend of a bar maid I did know) was fantastic. Saw the creep on his way and walked me to my car when I left. That's what good men do. They don't sit back and think to themselves it's inappropriate but she really shouldn't be out by herself and I don't want to cause trouble.

You just have to look at the Australian one punch laws and minimum sentencing around that to see how quickly laws can be enacted when men are the predominant victims of the crime.

[quote katieloves]@TheWaif the men I know including my 16 year old ds and his friends 100% respect women.[/quote]
I don't think mothers know if their sons respect other women.

I have a son too. Mothers are the last to know if their sons treat girls who reject them or compete with them (and win) well, it really is part of the problem to believe ''my son is perfect so stop insulting men"'

I HOPE my son treats women with respect. He hasn't been raised with a sexist father. well he does have a sexist father but we left when he was a baby. But he is a man in the patriarchy. Dress for success, wear a white penis.

It would be so naive to believe that my son will never be part of the problem.
fgs.

I think women have quite a low bar on what's considered respectful. Even the most respectful men I know are capable of disregarding me.

A few years ago a male friend was visiting, he was using something of mine and when he'd finished with it asked where he should put it away. I told him where the item lived and he went to put it in a different place, I thought he'd misunderstood me so directed him to the correct place, his response, "does it really matter?". Even in my own home one of the best men I know felt entitled to question how I organise things.

It's a very small thing but it does reflect the bigger problem of many men just not seeing us as fully human with equally valid feelings, needs and rights. My response to him? "If respecting how I organise things in my own home is a problem for you, there's the door". He apologised but many men would have told me I was a bitch and probably quite a few women would think I shouldn't have said anything. Worth noting that I have never had that kind of conversation with a woman.

[quote katieloves]@TheWaif the men I know including my 16 year old ds and his friends 100% respect women.[/quote]
Yes sure they do in front of you. Meanwhile with mates they are watching porn, rating girls using foul language.
I have 2 DD’s and they say every single boy they know dies this