The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

(girl from college) "how does it feel being white privileged AND a man)
(Son) are you joking?
(G F C) No, I'm deadly serious
(Son) hey I thought we were friends? I understand how you might be feeling, but why are you directing at me?
So in light of recent events a girl asks their male friend how it feels to be in society's dominant group and his response is to take it as a personal attack and dismiss them, then when they share their anger about how fed up they are he continues to make into why he is personally attacked.

@Crystalclair

What is your point *@Duchess*? I truly believe you have brought your children up well. So have I. My young adult son has never given me a moment's worry through his teen years. He is respectful, kind to his brothers and sisters as they are to him. But he is experiencing hate right now. I quote a text my son showed me yesterday.

(girl from college) "how does it feel being white privileged AND a man)

(Son) are you joking?

(G F C) No, I'm deadly serious

(Son) hey I thought we were friends? I understand how you might be feeling, but why are you directing at me?

(G F C) cos I'm fucked off with all men and little boys. So me and xyz have decided that we are gonna keep ourselves to ourselves cos we cant really trust anyone. Hey I know you're cool but tbf you prob gonna turn out like all the rest of the dicks, so.. soz'

(Son) ok, I dont even know how to reply to that tbh. Like I said, I get why you're angry but talk to me, you're making out like I've personally attacked you. And white privileged?! Huh where did that come from? I'm on your side !!!

And much like this.

This is incredibly similar to the Prison Mike skit from the Office US.

@Mittens030869

I’m absolutely sick of these posts accusing us of saying that all men are violent/misogynists. Once again, of course that isn’t the case!!!

I'm not saying that!! I'm saying that the hashtag ALLMEN can suggest that to some and have opposite desired effect.

I'm also sick of people thinking I'm trying to change their minds! I dont expect to, I'm airing my views.

I know you dont agree and that's fine!

@LolaSmiles

(girl from college) "how does it feel being white privileged AND a man) (Son) are you joking? (G F C) No, I'm deadly serious (Son) hey I thought we were friends? I understand how you might be feeling, but why are you directing at me? So in light of recent events a girl asks their male friend how it feels to be in society's dominant group and his response is to take it as a personal attack and dismiss them, then when they share their anger about how fed up they are he continues to make into why he is personally attacked.

Wow! Please re read. And if you still come to that conclusion then you've literally proved my point.

Never heard of it. Are you saying I'm making this up?

@LolaSmiles

(girl from college) "how does it feel being white privileged AND a man) (Son) are you joking? (G F C) No, I'm deadly serious (Son) hey I thought we were friends? I understand how you might be feeling, but why are you directing at me? So in light of recent events a girl asks their male friend how it feels to be in society's dominant group and his response is to take it as a personal attack and dismiss them, then when they share their anger about how fed up they are he continues to make into why he is personally attacked.

@Crystalclair and does he deny being white and privileged?

@mbosnz

Hmmm yet when I did refer to a “real” man (not a hypothetical example) that got mugged and ended up dead you didn’t want to know.

At that point I was entirely too invested in, and concerned for poor old Steve. . .

Whose Steve? he seems to be pivotal in the fight against violence directed at girls and women from men

Well, that’s where talking helps, so that there are no misunderstandings. I would have thought grown men should be mature enough to realise that a hashtag ALLMEN shouldn’t be taken literally? Or that they would at least be capable of clarifying what is meant by it rather than just taking the hump?

I'm not going there. This is becoming personal. So my son deserved that aggressive text? Because he is white and a man?

@Mittens030869

Well, that’s where talking helps, so that there are no misunderstandings. I would have thought grown men should be mature enough to realise that a hashtag ALLMEN shouldn’t be taken literally? Or that they would at least be capable of clarifying what is meant by it rather than just taking the hump?

Not the men we are trying to target

@Duchess are you still calling me racist?

@Crystalclair

I'm not going there. This is becoming personal. So my son deserved that aggressive text? Because he is white and a man?

Maybe, if he regularly denies being white and privileged and his friends are sick of it.

I'm not going there. This is becoming personal. So my son deserved that aggressive text? Because he is white and a man?
He didn't deserve for them to say he's going turn out like other dicks. That was uncalled for.

But it's fairly obvious to see how his response to them asking about privilege as a man wasn't met warmly and I stand by the fact that his response was dismissive.

If I asked DH about his privilege in life his response would not be:

• you're joking
• accuse me of having a go at him
• but I'm your husband so why are you asking me

Him being my husband doesn't remove his privilege, nor does it mean we don't talk about things because it might upset him to notice his position in society is better than mine. As he said the other say, he's not been worried walking home, he doesn't feel on edge going for an evening run, he doesn't have to choose his routes home carefully, he's never had to make up having a wife meeting him to stop a woman pushing to let her buy him a drink because a woman accepts the authority of a wife more than his perfectly reasonable and polite decline.

Your son, like my husband, has privilege. Dismissing it when friends ask isn't a good thing.

@NiceGerbil

'I'm saying 'Why not Black youths' because in London (yes I'm from London too), you will know that the majority of perpetrators and victims of knife crime are black youths. '

Is that true? Across the whole of London?

Black people are in a massive minority.

Round here knife crime does not fit that- but I'll have a look. Fully prepared to be wrong.

The only thing I could find on this subject which offered any figures (and a couple of sources) was fullfact.org/crime/are-majority-youth-knife-offenders-minority-ethnic/

It doesn't take any account of how likely a white middle-class lad in Hampstead is to be stopped and searched in case he is carrying a knife, of course.

[quote Crystalclair]@duchess I'm sure you have got respectful children as do I. However, I'm teaching them in a different way to you, and that's my right. I dont need to prove how well adjusted and respectful they are. It's not a competition, just different views.

You can tell me I'm wrong, or my parenting is bad. But as you dont know us and I dont know you then it's hardly worth the angst, dont you agree?[/quote]
@Crystalclair
I honestly don't give a shit about a racist mans opnion

Not sure about this racism diversion even though I joined in!

Let's stick to the point.

The OP said the problem with Not All Men.

I think we have enough to get our teeth into with that tbh.

@LolaSmiles

I'm not going there. This is becoming personal. So my son deserved that aggressive text? Because he is white and a man? He didn't deserve for them to say he's going turn out like other dicks. That was uncalled for.

But it's fairly obvious to see how his response to them asking about privilege as a man wasn't met warmly and I stand by the fact that his response was dismissive.

If I asked DH about his privilege in life his response would not be:

• you're joking
• accuse me of having a go at him
• but I'm your husband so why are you asking me

Him being my husband doesn't remove his privilege, nor does it mean we don't talk about things because it might upset him to notice his position in society is better than mine. As he said the other say, he's not been worried walking home, he doesn't feel on edge going for an evening run, he doesn't have to choose his routes home carefully, he's never had to make up having a wife meeting him to stop a woman pushing to let her buy him a drink because a woman accepts the authority of a wife more than his perfectly reasonable and polite decline.

Your son, like my husband, has privilege. Dismissing it when friends ask isn't a good thing.

No Lola, his Friend didnt say, hey ... can we talk because I'm really not happy about xyz.

She jumped straight in with the aggressive accusational tone. Her tone was aggressive, and his response was one of shock because it was directed at him personally. Which proves my point that it's all about delivery. They were friends, he has been there for her numerous times. It was uncalled for.

His response for a 19 year old was not aggressive but one of disbelief. No need for that

Excuse me @Duchess? Who exactly is racist? And what man? I'm a woman!

No Lola, his Friend didnt say, hey ... can we talk because I'm really not happy about xyz.

She jumped straight in with the aggressive accusational tone. Her tone was aggressive, and his response was one of shock because it was directed at him personally. Which proves my point that it's all about delivery. They were friends, he has been there for her numerous times. It was uncalled for.
So we are back at tone policing

His friend didn't ask him about his male privilege in a way that he wanted, therefore they were aggressive and accusatory in yours (and I'm guessing from his 'you're joking' response) and his eyes.

The girl's tone was apparently aggressive and accusatory.
Your son saying 'you're joking' wasn't dismissive, he was just in shock.

We will have to agree to disagree on this because it keeps coming back to the fact that women and girls should be ensuring that any discussion about this topic is done in the correct tone to avoid upsetting those with privilege.

@Duchess
Ok, you know full well that I was responding to you asking me why I mentioned black youths! I answered. It was a comparison. If you had bothered to read all my posts you would clearly see that I am so far removed from racist!

If you cant work out my post (and even though many others disagree with my stance, I believe they have not got 'racist' from my posts.

Dont tell me your not sure why I've mentioned that.

Also, are you sure you are middle class because you dont seem to be understanding my point.

Do not fucking call me racist again. You are purposely trying to make me out to be something I'm not. You are out of order

@Crystalclair

What is your point *@Duchess*? I truly believe you have brought your children up well. So have I. My young adult son has never given me a moment's worry through his teen years. He is respectful, kind to his brothers and sisters as they are to him. But he is experiencing hate right now. I quote a text my son showed me yesterday.

(girl from college) "how does it feel being white privileged AND a man)

(Son) are you joking?

(G F C) No, I'm deadly serious

(Son) hey I thought we were friends? I understand how you might be feeling, but why are you directing at me?

(G F C) cos I'm fucked off with all men and little boys. So me and xyz have decided that we are gonna keep ourselves to ourselves cos we cant really trust anyone. Hey I know you're cool but tbf you prob gonna turn out like all the rest of the dicks, so.. soz'

(Son) ok, I dont even know how to reply to that tbh. Like I said, I get why you're angry but talk to me, you're making out like I've personally attacked you. And white privileged?! Huh where did that come from? I'm on your side !!!

And much like this.

@Crystalclair you keep perpetuating that white men are victims. You stated that whites are a minority in London which basic googling will demonstrate that's not true. Plus the text's from your son's fictional friends are hardly hate crimes. My 13yr old son has lots of prank type messages from girls who probably like him and he just ignores them. If you have a young adult son who can't deal with rejection from young women its a problem that you need to address

Lola - whatever really. I'm so not having it that my son has done something wrong by being a man and white, when he is one of the kindest souls.