The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

Also ..... Flowers I am loving how you've taken on board posters explainations
Same here.

I think back to when realised that my 'can't we be nice to everyone/it's all about choice' feminism wasn't really good enough for the big issues in society and it was a really uncomfortable feeling.

Kudos to Flowers for taking on board what people are saying. These discussions can be quite robust.

@LastRoloIsMine with there being more women in the world than men they could be considered a minority group... I’m mostly joking with that comment however my point was that with ANY group of people you can’t expect everyone else in that group to be responsible. You would never say all Muslims are responsible for stopping terrorism for example.

I’m going to start with responding to #NotAllMen with just #TooManyMenAre

BaaMooCluckOink
But they can take responsibility for their actions.

My DH isn't responsible for another man choosing to violently attack a woman, but (as a man with all the structural privileges he has) he is responsible for his own actions. This means he is responsible for not laughing along when another man makes misogynistic jokes, he is responsible for talking about the fact he does his fair share at home and with DC because he is an equal adult at home, he is responsible for saying excuse me to pass women (and not doing what some men do and use it as an opportunity to slide up against women), he is responsible for not sitting quietly on the sidelines if others are being misogynistic.

The Muslims and terrorism argument doesn't quite work, because evidently not all Muslims are responsible if someone commits a horrendous act, but look at how much work the Muslim community do to challenge extremism, to build community relations, to send a loud message that they do not accept violence in their name.

Twistered

You can poke around the stats here: ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s

@BaaMooCluckOink

Muslims as a group aren't terrorists. Some extremists etc just happen to be Muslim.
Muslims as a group do not hold power over non Muslims. Muslims as a group do not oppress non Muslims, Muslims as a group are not oppressors in the UK. Society culture, laws, norms, jokes, media, jobs etc is not fixed to benefit Muslims over non Muslims. And actually Muslim leaders have been called on to condemn extremists and violence etc.

Men as a collective group . . Society is fixed to benefit men over women. Males as a group unfortunately are the oppressor. Women are the oppressed. Generally speaking of course. And of course not all women are oppressed and not all men are oppressed. Society culture, norms, jokes, laws, practices, thinking, media, jobs etc . . . Benefit men and oppress women. It's not enough for my husband to be lovely and not a sexist. If he laughs at jokes that are sexist towards women and doesn't call out sexism then he is perpetuating sexism. He is part of the problem that affects his wife , daughters, sister and mum. Even if he is a wonderful person.

Racism .... Society is fixed to benefit white people. White people are in the oppressor group. People of colour are in the oppressed group. Not all white people are racist. Not all people of colour are oppressed. But society is fixed that way.
I'm not racist. But that's not enough. If I laugh at a racist joke, I am perpetuating negative thinking about people of colour which is perpetuating deep rooted racism, violence and oppression. So it's not enough to be not racist. Given the oppression that people of colour face I have to be anti racist. I challenge someone when they tell a racist joke etc

In Northern Ireland to move on from deep rooted sectarianism and violence ..... its really not enough not to be sectarian. I have to be anti sectarian. I challenge sectarianism when I hear or see it.

It's not enough just to be not sexist, not racist, not sectarian, not discrimatory to people with a disability,
I have to be anti discrimination, anti racist, anti sectarian, anti sexist and call it out.

You would never say all Muslims are responsible for stopping terrorism for example.

They are as responsible as any of us. We are told as a society to watch out for signs of radicalization and behaviour within our communities and families that is suspicious/possibly lead to terrorism. I think I mentioned earlier how a few years ago Imams in my city worked with the police to educate their own muslim communities on the signs of radicalization and terrorism.

I am not holding all men responsible for the actions of other men. As Lola has pointed out men can check their own poor behaviour towards women. They can say to the men in their life such as friends and family that misogyny is not a good look and they won't be joing in the bantz.

I’m annoyed I just wrote a big long post and it never posted. Basically the gist is that I actually agree with what is being said in principle, but think that the way it is coming across just now on social media is not helping. We need men to actively seek to help women. By using divisive us v them language, I think it will be more likely to alienate them rather than unite with us to stop the ‘bad guys’. That’s my problem. I seen ‘men are rapey bastards’ and it pisses me off. Like it pisses me off when a guy is cheated on and it is ‘women are slags’ as an example. Now he doesn’t actually mean all women. He especially doesn’t mean his gran, mum, sister etc but uses a blanket term for all. But it’s offensive to read. I seen just now a woman on Twitter encouraging men to be allies for women, but she used encouragement, kind words etc. I reckon anyone is more likely to respond in a positive way to that than ‘oi ya rapey bastards, stick up for us’. My comments are in reference to the bigger picture than this thread where it’s not been man-hating so much but I think this is where people are getting defensive about men. And it becomes counterproductive. You catch more sugar with honey than shit on a stick.

@BaaMooCluckOink

You are completely right we should be sugary and nice and be kind and plead that men aren't violent to women 🙄
Black people should be nice and kind to racists and ask them nicely not to kill them 🙄

Sugary niceness and kind pleading has not worked for women. I am now ready to shout from the rooftops ..... "Men, all men pay attention, male violence towards women must fucking stop". I'll be shouting it to apologists as well.

@BaaMooCluckOink

I’m annoyed I just wrote a big long post and it never posted. Basically the gist is that I actually agree with what is being said in principle, but think that the way it is coming across just now on social media is not helping. We need men to actively seek to help women. By using divisive us v them language, I think it will be more likely to alienate them rather than unite with us to stop the ‘bad guys’. That’s my problem. I seen ‘men are rapey bastards’ and it pisses me off. Like it pisses me off when a guy is cheated on and it is ‘women are slags’ as an example. Now he doesn’t actually mean all women. He especially doesn’t mean his gran, mum, sister etc but uses a blanket term for all. But it’s offensive to read. I seen just now a woman on Twitter encouraging men to be allies for women, but she used encouragement, kind words etc. I reckon anyone is more likely to respond in a positive way to that than ‘oi ya rapey bastards, stick up for us’. My comments are in reference to the bigger picture than this thread where it’s not been man-hating so much but I think this is where people are getting defensive about men. And it becomes counterproductive. You catch more sugar with honey than shit on a stick.

I think though if there’s a type of person who won’t do the right thing until it’s presented in a very specific way, they probably won’t help anyway. It’s like bullies going ‘say please and I’ll give you your lunch money back’, it’s another form of control.

I've seen much more apologists and NAMALT than any man hating.
Even those words .. man hating, again thats derogatory to women and this cause. I haven't actually seen any man hating. I've seen fear, anger, silencing techniques etc. But absolutely no man hating.
I certainly don't hate men. I've wonderful males in my life. Truly wonderful brilliant good men.
I'm still afraid of being attacked. I'm still acutely aware of deep rooted sexism. I'm still acutely aware of male violence towards women.

As Lola and other posters said men can check their own thinking & behaviour towards women. They can call out misogyny. That's what I'm asking the males in my life to do.

Why can't people understand this is not an attack on men! It really isn't.
Challenging racism is not an attack on white people.
Challenging sexism is not attacking men

I think though if there’s a type of person who won’t do the right thing until it’s presented in a very specific way, they probably won’t help anyway. It’s like bullies going ‘say please and I’ll give you your lunch money back’, it’s another form of control
That's how I feel.

Men who say 'I was going to speak up about male violence towards women, but I won't now because some women were talking too passionately about it online' aren't good men.
Men who say 'I would stand up and challenge misogyny, but women talking about male (as a class) violence upsets me as they haven't sufficiently centred the fact that I'm a nice guy, so I'm not going to speak out' aren't nice guys.

It's a case of 'if you ask nicely then I might consider using some of my power to push for your safety, but if you don't behave how I think women should then I'm happy to let the status quo continue'

@Twistered black men asking racists nicely? No that won’t work because racists are actually bad people as a whole. Unless some racists are actually supporting black people but probably not eh? The correct analogy wouldn’t be to racists but to white people. Now saying to white people you know here are things you could do that would make a big difference to our lives, would be better than shouting you’re all racist white bastards, do something about it! If I want anyone to do something they don’t have to (even if they should) then I will ask nicely. Depends what you want the result to be? If you want everyone to know men are shit, keep shouting it the way it’s been done already. Probably turn them off helping though. If you actually want them to help women make the world safer, don’t be an arsehole about it.

Depends what you want the result to be? If you want everyone to know men are shit, keep shouting it the way it’s been done already. Probably turn them off helping though. If you actually want them to help women make the world safer, don’t be an arsehole about it.

So whether all these nice people challenge male violence and women's oppression depends on whether women are nice and smiley enough about it?
If people are turned off from pushing for equality and wanting safer societies because women haven't used the right tone, they're not allies.

@Tinkat

Women aren't abducting, raping, beating and murdering themselves.

Men and boys are raped and beaten too. The problem is sadistic men, and that is a small proportion of men, not all men. By using language that casts suspicion on all men some people are being discriminatory and offensive. It's pretty obvious that people will find that offensive and stop listening, so they're not doing themselves any favours.

@Tinkat are you a man?

Yeah. Make it about women having to smile and people please. Ignore the other comparisons which aren’t about women. If a man asked a woman for help I’d expect them to be nice too. But if you’re a shitty person in general then what does being nice matter anyway. Keep screaming. Personally I’d like more men on the team, not less.

[quote OurSurveySaid]@partyatthepalace

Then you are part of the problem. We have all been part of the problem, but we all have a responsibility to try and do better in future - to do what we can. It’s sad that you are choosing not to.

I have no children, so save your sadness for someone else.[/quote]
@OurSurveySaid
Why is a man with no children trying to dominate a discussion about male aggression on a parenting site?

[quote BaaMooCluckOink]@Twistered black men asking racists nicely? No that won’t work because racists are actually bad people as a whole. Unless some racists are actually supporting black people but probably not eh? The correct analogy wouldn’t be to racists but to white people. Now saying to white people you know here are things you could do that would make a big difference to our lives, would be better than shouting you’re all racist white bastards, do something about it! If I want anyone to do something they don’t have to (even if they should) then I will ask nicely. Depends what you want the result to be? If you want everyone to know men are shit, keep shouting it the way it’s been done already. Probably turn them off helping though. If you actually want them to help women make the world safer, don’t be an arsehole about it.[/quote]
I don’t think that’s true either though - you can be a decent person with unconscious racist bias, particularly if you’ve grown up with very little contact with different racial groups or cultures. I think it’s absolutely fine to be told ‘actually that’s racist’ even if you don’t believe yourself to be, that’s no reason not to listen.

The immediate defensiveness from people who are told ‘actually, that’s a horrendous opinion to have and here’s why you should look at that’ is quite telling I think.

I don’t disagree with the unconscious bias and the need for it to be challenged. I FULLY agree. On racism, sexism, homophobia etc. I won’t say why but I didn’t realise I had unconscious bias until a few years ago until I learned about it and I now always try to challenge things if I hear it. Because now I know better and I’m a nice person generally. I didn’t know about unconscious bias. I thought I wasn’t racist or whatever but now I know better that that isn’t enough and so actively challenge it. Had I not read up or become aware of what it looked like and it struck a chord I don’t know if my views would’ve changed. You know if someone just screamed at me that I was racist, you’re the problem I don’t think I’d have taken it on board but became defensive instead. So I don’t know why I am getting stick on here for saying that some people have been giving unwarranted abuse to men effectively. If you think you haven’t or you haven’t seen it happen then it’s probably not you I am referring to. I mean, even if you shout shout for people to get educated not just insult them.

@BaaMooCluckOink

I don’t disagree with the unconscious bias and the need for it to be challenged. I FULLY agree. On racism, sexism, homophobia etc. I won’t say why but I didn’t realise I had unconscious bias until a few years ago until I learned about it and I now always try to challenge things if I hear it. Because now I know better and I’m a nice person generally. I didn’t know about unconscious bias. I thought I wasn’t racist or whatever but now I know better that that isn’t enough and so actively challenge it. Had I not read up or become aware of what it looked like and it struck a chord I don’t know if my views would’ve changed. You know if someone just screamed at me that I was racist, you’re the problem I don’t think I’d have taken it on board but became defensive instead. So I don’t know why I am getting stick on here for saying that some people have been giving unwarranted abuse to men effectively. If you think you haven’t or you haven’t seen it happen then it’s probably not you I am referring to. I mean, even if you shout shout for people to get educated not just insult them.

I think though when it’s a topic such as racial abuse or violence towards women, it’s a topic that’s been fought over so many times and yet people are still being killed or abused at an absolutely incredible rate. I don’t think now is the time for moderate language, I think now is the time to say, as someone said above, ‘you’re either part of the solution or you’re part of the problem’.

And as I said, anyone who doesn’t care enough about ending violence until it’s put to them in a very specific way probably isn’t going to do much one way or the other. You can’t make people care.

You can’t. Like I say I don’t differ from you in terms of what I want to happen. I just think it’s like talking a foreign language to someone. If they don’t get it, saying it louder won’t help one but. We need more education in schools. And at home. My nephews and nieces are all very pro recycling and saving the planet. Because that’s what they are now taught at school. And then they come and give me a row for not turning lights off I do think the majority of people are good. Teach them when they’re young. I think too that I’m seeing men saying they never knew about women doing all these measures at night to keep safe. They know that we try not to walk alone but not the rest. And they feel that’s wrong that we have to do that. They are the ones who will respond to the situation by helping us keep safe. The other ones who choose not to even after all these stories are a lost cause I think. And I don’t want to alienate the ones who do get it by insinuating they’re all scum. Get them on board young before the misogyny can start.

@SillyOldBear3

Why should a man be made to feel uncomfortable for walking down the street at night? I'm sorry, but this doesn't sit easy with me. Maybe us women need to change our attitudes too, and stop tarring all men with the same brush. I'm guilty of feeling uncomfortable when walking alone, but this says more about me and the social constructs I've been brought up with than it does about any men I might pass on my journey.

From a young age, we're taught that we "need to be careful of strange men".. don't take any sweeties or get into any cars; be back before it gets dark or you'll get kidnapped.. be careful of that man who lives on his own, he must be a paedophile.

We're taught to live in fear from the moment we step out of the door.

This campaign will change nothing. It will just make innocent men feel targeted, and with good reason.

What needs to change is out policing system. We're far too lenient on criminals. Guilty men are let out early on good behaviour. Pedophiles are let back out into society without adequate surveillance. Rape victims are afraid to speak out as our legal system is so flawed.

Women will continue to live in fear until THIS changes. Unfortunately, the virtue-signalling campaign will undoubtedly continue, and it will cut deep for the innocent men who deserve none of this judgement.

A woman has been murdered and your worried about men feeling "uncomfortable" this thread alone proves that lots of don't give a shit and are not remotely uncomfortable some are even angry that we are having this debat

@Baamoo actually I completely agree. I do understand and agree with what is trying to be done. But, it's the way it's being done that I don't like, because it will have the complete opposite effect on the types of men we would want to get through to.

Being told in an aggressive manner that you are part of the problem is counterproductive. Getting the message out there to get all men on board as opposed to telling them how they're responsible is far more likely to have the reaction we want.

It's not sugar coating- its basic respect. We cant ask for respect and then show the opposite.

And before anyone says it, I have see LOADS of examples of aggressive man hating examples over the last few days.

@Crystalclair
Can you show me some examples?
Genuinely interested

@DrSbaitso

I've never advance searched a poster or tried to follow them, but I've just realised that piedpiper has another thread going that would explain her posts on this subject and why she's talking such nonsense.

There's at least one other aggressive poster that's playing the same game