The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

@DuchessHastings you’ve just totally proved my point. And you can’t see it.

@Pumperthepumper if I went to defend someone and they started giving me abuse I’d probably not bother!

@Crystalclair

*@super* that's irrelevant. My point being why should innocent men feel responsible as a whole when they havent done anything wrong. Why draw the line there? Why not a young black youths, or all muslims, etc. That mentality is wrong and counterproductive

You keep saying racist shit why?

Wow. @Crystalclair is saying it’s not ok to be racist. Saying that no group should be stereotyped. That sexism should be unacceptable like racism.

We are not one homogenous group

Exactly this. You’re not all the same. Of course not!! That is a ridiculous position. One that sadly some people do think still which is disgusting. But men are also not the same and come from all different walks of life. Everybody is more than their gender, race, sexual orientation, abilities. These are all things that can’t be changed and shouldn’t be used to attack people for.

@2021ismyyear

CuriousaboutSamphire

You are creating a very silly argument here.

So a man does something good and you piss all over it? How exactly does that help?

@2021ismyyear you are also "pissing over black and Muslim men" for no apparent reason. you are denigrating women plus black boys and men. Your post is disgraceful

A few random thoughts.

Tone/ delivery/ being nice about it etc won't work. It just won't.

The bottom line is that, frankly, most men just don't care.

There seems to be a thing where they see the women they know and love as people but other women and girls are not seen like that. Not really.

Sex offences are always spoken about as the worst of the worst but when something actually happens, most of the time, it's. What was she wearing, why did she go out by herself, why didn't she get a cab, why did she go home with him etc etc.

What happens in real life just doesn't match with what is said.

Also what's in it for men? I have worked with a lot of nice, normal family men. And the way I've heard them joke etc about women is just awful. For a man to put himself out there in the group and say that's not funny etc. He risks being pushed out and he's gained nothing.

I always remember a chap I worked with who knew I was a bit of a feminist. Lovely sensitive guy. Came to me one day and said omg last night this guy in our group was pissed and basically sexually assaulting women in the bar. Isn't that all awful! I think he wanted praise for noticing. I said. What did you do about it? He looked confused. I said well you could have told the bouncers or the bar staff. No risk to you. It hadn't crossed his mind.

He was nice. An 'ally'. But when it comes down to it most men just aren't really interested. They'll listen and make the right noises, some of them. But actually doing something? Nope.

I think this is why the defensiveness is a common response. Respond with, NAMALT, you're tarring all men with the same brush etc diverts the conversation and gives the bloke an angle of righteous indignation and the person who said whatever then has to make nice, be kind, reassure them etc. And he doesn't have to think about the actual problem. Job done.

[quote BaaMooCluckOink]@Pumperthepumper if I went to defend someone and they started giving me abuse I’d probably not bother![/quote]
Why would they give you abuse?

This is such a circular argument, I think because you’re feeling defensive. Ultimately, women cannot fix the problem of male violence. We’ve tried. We can’t do it.

Men need to do it, because men listen to other men. Women cannot, regardless of tone, make those men step up if they don’t want to.

The only way that will change is if enough men want to change the status quo.

The other point I always find interesting is that with no other group is the oppressed in such a close relationship with the oppressor.

And I know that phrasing will get picked apart but anyway. Imagine we're talking about Iraq or Saudi or similar.

Men want us and need us, in general, if heterosexual. They fare better when married/ settled. Get paid more at work. Men like sex. Most want children. Etc etc. Women too fancy men, want sex, like having a boyfriend partner kids etc.

So there's this really difficult dynamic where the people (as a group) who are doing all this awful stuff are also the people we marry, live with, give birth to etc.

That makes the whole thing way more personal and way more fraught.

No man asked me to or expected to defend them. I’m actually not talking about mine at all anyway because he gets it. I will however speak up Olof I think something is unfair. Like this. I will also speak up if I think a woman is in danger or a man is being rude about one etc. We on this thread are wanting a common goal. We just have different ideas of how it should be done. I get the passion, I get the anger, I just wonder what the psychology in attack vs reasoning would support.

Agree we can't fix male violence.

Men created the the laws and still control most of the money, government etc.

The suffragettes didn't get the vote by asking nicely. They were seen as terrorists. They did some really extreme stuff. And kept at it in the face of an extreme reaction by the authorities.

Women have never got anything without working really hard for it, and often using quite major methods.

Whoah @Duchess how on earth did you jump to me being racist from my post?!

I'm saying 'Why not Black youths' because in London (yes I'm from London too), you will know that the majority of perpetrators and victims of knife crime are black youths. My point is simply that it would be wrong, to then tarnish all black youths in London with the same brush - that is that 'they could be a thug/gang member etc' it's wrong, right?

And the same for my mentioning muslims, because most terror attacks are by Muslims. So would it be fair to be cautious of all muslim people 'in case they're a terrorist '. No, it wouldn't

So you must see what I was trying to illustrate there? I'm making comparisons as to why the above two are outrageous, hurtful and, ridiculous and un called for, so why are we grouping a whole chunk of society I.e men, and taring them with the same brush with the 'just in case'.

Its pretty clear that I'm not racist thank you very much.

And @duchess, the reference I made to @2021, was that we are the minority on this thread with our opinions! Had nothing whatsoever to do with race!

@2021ismyyear

“I don’t know why you think this non-existent hatred of men is worse than the literal murders and attacks carried out by actual men though”

So are you saying my charity volunteer husband that wrote a dissertation supporting women at university is worse than say... rose west?!

@2021ismyyear can you send us links to your husbands dissertation as although Rose West is evil its been documented that not only was she controlled by her husband she's in a very small minority of female offenders who are convicted of sexual abuse.

'Everybody is more than their gender, race, sexual orientation, abilities. These are all things that can’t be changed and shouldn’t be used to attack people for.'

But people are attacked for these things all the time.

Women, people who are in a minority ethnic group, gay men and lesbians, people with disabilities.

Like, all the time.

It would be nice if they weren't but that's not how it is.

Saying that VAWG is massively predominantly an issue with men as a group is a fair thing to say in the face of that surely?

I think if they see more vulnerable people saying please help as an attack then they really don't understand the experiences of others.

@BaaMooCluckOink

No man asked me to or expected to defend them. I’m actually not talking about mine at all anyway because he gets it. I will however speak up Olof I think something is unfair. Like this. I will also speak up if I think a woman is in danger or a man is being rude about one etc. We on this thread are wanting a common goal. We just have different ideas of how it should be done. I get the passion, I get the anger, I just wonder what the psychology in attack vs reasoning would support.

Like this what? I don’t understand this post, sorry.

What can women do to get men to step up?

'I'm saying 'Why not Black youths' because in London (yes I'm from London too), you will know that the majority of perpetrators and victims of knife crime are black youths. '

Is that true? Across the whole of London?

Black people are in a massive minority.

Round here knife crime does not fit that- but I'll have a look. Fully prepared to be wrong.

@BaaMooCluckOink

Wow. *@Crystalclair* is saying it’s not ok to be racist. Saying that no group should be stereotyped. That sexism should be unacceptable like racism.

We are not one homogenous group

Exactly this. You’re not all the same. Of course not!! That is a ridiculous position. One that sadly some people do think still which is disgusting. But men are also not the same and come from all different walks of life. Everybody is more than their gender, race, sexual orientation, abilities. These are all things that can’t be changed and shouldn’t be used to attack people for.

This is my point @BaaMoo, I'm saying that no one, no gender, sex, race, religion should be stereotyped in a one glove fits all scenario.

I'm al for equality FOR ALL.

My words keep getting twisted, making me out to be racist or stupid even. And yet I simply have an opinion.

For the one thousandth time, yes, I totally totally agree us women need men to listen, but not by anger, not by inflammatory words, but by getting our point out there in a way we can engage men. You can say no one is an hating or being aggressive, but I can assure you in the real world - not a forum, I'm seeing just that. And it's a shame because I think it will have the opposite effect that we want.

Let's face it, men get away with such shit and agressive behaviour because they know women cannot compete.

In the last half hour I have been intimidated by a white van driving literally two feet behind my car leaving me no way to pull in to let him past. I didn't see the driver but I know it was a man. I finally indicate left, but so does he so I immediately turn right, he follows me.

My crime? I have no idea, but at the traffic lights I waited, as I was turning right, for an oncoming car, it's the law. Maybe I wasn't quick enough. He followed me until he got tired of the game.

Now it's just a laugh to him but I am sitting here shaking, on my own, no partner to get angry with me.

I'm sure he gets home and his wife thinks he would never attack a woman. Women are deluded if they think their men aren't 'like that'.

Rant over.

For the one thousandth time, yes, I totally totally agree us women need men to listen, but not by anger, not by inflammatory words, but by getting our point out there in a way we can engage men. You can say no one is an hating or being aggressive, but I can assure you in the real world - not a forum, I'm seeing just that. And it's a shame because I think it will have the opposite effect that we want.

And for the one millionth time, I think the tone women use is irrelevant. I think the tone men use is irrelevant. The issue isn’t tone. The issue is, men are not stepping up to sort this out. Because we know, men listen to other men. There is nothing women can do here.

[quote NurseButtercup]@2021ismyyear
@Crystalclair

The stance that you are both adopting is very bizarre.

Nobody is saying that they hate all men.
Nobody is attempting to demonise all men.

By stating "all people" in opposition to "all men", doesn't hold up when we know that the men who commit crimes against women (verbal, emotional & physical abuse), do not listen to women telling them to stop.

They are more likely to listen to other men who are NOT intent on hurting women.

Why is this so hard for you to comprehend??[/quote]
@NurseButtercup the stance they are adopting is incredibly bizarre for women...

I'm al for equality FOR ALL.

And this issue with ‘equality for all’ is it assumes that we all start from an equal position, which we know isn’t true. We can’t have equality for all, because we cant treat people exactly the same.

What we can have is fairness.

Out of interest if it's no good to collect stats etc on what's what, there's no way of looking into any underlying reasons and trying to address them.

That's not a great idea is it?

If you want to tackle X crime you need to understand the dynamics etc.

If you want to tackle knife crime you don't spread the money and initiatives equally across the whole country do you. It would be a waste.

Apparently right wing white terrorists became the majority in 2019?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/white-people-terror-offences-number-ethnic-group-asian-home-office-a9376846.html

And of course, for quite some time, during the troubles, terrorist attacks were on the whole committed by Whites, then too?

I get the issue, but, if the roles were reversed and it was "women are violent, women are rapists and women are doing this that and the other", I would feel a bit put out being lumped in with those horrid individuals who are doing those horrific things and would want to distance myself from it somehow. I don't know the answer, just playing devils advocate really
I see what you're trying to do, and don't doubt that many men might find the discussion uncomfortable, but I think any man with eyes and ears open is more than capable of understanding that a discussion of men (as a class) does not equal a personal attack on them.

Switching it to women and how you would want to be distanced makes sense to a point, but I really think it's hard to get away from the fact that we can't say 'if it was 'women are...' or put ourselves in the opposite situation because the whole situation is loaded with a power dynamic where men are not only physically stronger on a 1-1 level, but have dominated most areas of society for centuries. As women, we don't know how we'd feel if we were being asked to use our systemically entrenched power to advocate for men's safety.

An otherwise decent man who has a blind spot for his own everyday sexism would hear women speaking about their experiences, their oppression, and life on the receiving end of male (as a class)pattern behaviour, and would listen and learn.
If he doesn't and focuses on why he is the victim of women talking about their experiences of misogyny and violence then he isn't a good man, and nothing a woman says or does will be enough. He will only listen when enough of the good men tell him to shut the fuck up and that his behaviour isn't acceptable.

@NiceGerbil

'I'm saying 'Why not Black youths' because in London (yes I'm from London too), you will know that the majority of perpetrators and victims of knife crime are black youths. '

Is that true? Across the whole of London?

Black people are in a massive minority.

Round here knife crime does not fit that- but I'll have a look. Fully prepared to be wrong.

The are in London I live in, black people are not the minority. In my children's school, there are a much smaller percentage of white people. I suppose I'm basing that on my borough, and surrounding boroughs.

And before anyone jumps on me and calls me racist - again! please do not take that out of context with the minority. I m clearly stating a fact with the ratio. I obviously love the diversity of London, or else I wouldn't live here.