The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

@Pumperthepumper

For the one thousandth time, yes, I totally totally agree us women need men to listen, but not by anger, not by inflammatory words, but by getting our point out there in a way we can engage men. You can say no one is an hating or being aggressive, but I can assure you in the real world - not a forum, I'm seeing just that. And it's a shame because I think it will have the opposite effect that we want.

And for the one millionth time, I think the tone women use is irrelevant. I think the tone men use is irrelevant. The issue isn’t tone. The issue is, men are not stepping up to sort this out. Because we know, men listen to other men. There is nothing women can do here.

@pumper good for you,that's your opinion and I don't expect to change it. However, I disagree- and that is my opinion.

@NiceGerbil

Out of interest if it's no good to collect stats etc on what's what, there's no way of looking into any underlying reasons and trying to address them.

That's not a great idea is it?

If you want to tackle X crime you need to understand the dynamics etc.

If you want to tackle knife crime you don't spread the money and initiatives equally across the whole country do you. It would be a waste.

But if you look up the deaths by knife crime in london over the past few years, it is pretty clear that it is mainly black youths.

good for you,that's your opinion and I don't expect to change it. However, I disagree- and that is my opinion

We disagree and that’s absolutely fair enough. Except you can’t tell me anything women can do to get men to step up. Which makes me think your opinion is probably not as certain as you want us to believe it is.

@2021ismyyear

I’m out I’m afraid. You can reason with stupid woke people it seems. Best of luck getting men on your side by saying that crimes against them are not as bad and belittling the ones that are decent. Best of luck with that!

@2021ismyyear I'm glad you're out as accusing people of being woke for calling out male aggression on a site called "Mumsnet" is incredibly low. What decent man comes onto a parenting site initially aimed at mothers to shout down women concerned about male violence. Why don't you post on a mens rights group?

@Pumperthepumper

good for you,that's your opinion and I don't expect to change it. However, I disagree- and that is my opinion

We disagree and that’s absolutely fair enough. Except you can’t tell me anything women can do to get men to step up. Which makes me think your opinion is probably not as certain as you want us to believe it is.

@Pumper, I already said up thread that I dont have the magic answer. My opinion is simply that this way wont work and will just incite the very people who views/ways we want to change.

I already said campaigns, awareness of a day in a womens life of sexism/ violence/ rape etc. I'm not saying I dont think we should try anything, I'm saying I think we should deliver the message in a different way.

#ALLMEN is inflammatory

No-one has said 'all men'. Again.

@Crystalclair I already said campaigns, awareness of a day in a womens life of sexism/ violence/ rape etc. I'm not saying I dont think we should try anything, I'm saying I think we should deliver the message in a different way.

Already happening though. Still not working.

** 2021ismyyear
I’m out I’m afraid. You can reason with stupid woke people it seems. Best of luck getting men on your side by saying that crimes against them are not as bad and belittling the ones that are decent. Best of luck with that!**

How is it ‘woke’ to point out that, as 97% of 18-30 year old women have experienced some level sexual harassment at the hands of men, it means that there is a serious problem with male violence and misogyny? And that we need men to recognise this if there is to be meaningful change?

You’ve also asked me @Pumperthepumper I’ve said upthread things that could be potentially done. For a start. The ‘Like this’ you didn’t get was probably because I managed to put a wrong word in by mistake. I was saying I will stand up for anyone in an unfair situation. Like this (being blaming all men). Anyway I’ve said what I think. Some feel the same as me, some disagree. That’s fine but all we’re doing is women vs women so it’s not really doing anything. None of us will be changing our minds I assume. Saying we can’t have equality but we can have fairness. Fairness is not putting people down to bring others up. @Somanysocks trying to illustrate that it IS every man. Well there’s no point in trying then.

@Crystalclair

#ALLMEN is inflammatory is inflammatory. Why do you feel the need to do that? Still?

[quote Crystalclair]@ministry They are not doing this at schools and colleges though, are they?!

The Narrative here is that unless you have an opinion of the majority, then your input is not acceptable. Why have a discussion board if you expect everyone to agree all the time?

I pity those with sons I really do. My children have been taught to be respectful and fair in exactly the same manner. As human beings. None of this women vs men shit. We should be educating ALL humans!

I'm done with this now you'll be pleased to know. Feel free to have the last word if it makes you feel better about yourselves - I'm passed caring. I stand firmly by my views and wont be convinced otherwise. Sending love and luck! X[/quote]
My son is happy he loves his twin sister and knows that although she's his equal in intellect etc she's 3 inches shorter and a stone lighter despite the fact shes 2 mins older.
If a 13yr old can grasp that why can't you as an adult male!

CrystalClair

I'm not sure what your point is.

We use stats to try and make things better my targeting various groups/ trying to understand the structural issues issues causing different groups to do different things.

Do you think this is not a good idea?

It happens all the time.

I don't think though that when it's said. X population is more likely to be involved in why let's see if we can work out why and do something about it, that that's a bad thing?

Sorry not read the whole thread but this does feel like a side track and I'm not sure what your original point was!

@BaaMooCluckOink

You’ve also asked me *@Pumperthepumper I’ve said upthread things that could be potentially done. For a start. The ‘Like this’ you didn’t get was probably because I managed to put a wrong word in by mistake. I was saying I will stand up for anyone in an unfair situation. Like this (being blaming all men). Anyway I’ve said what I think. Some feel the same as me, some disagree. That’s fine but all we’re doing is women vs women so it’s not really doing anything. None of us will be changing our minds I assume. Saying we can’t have equality but we can have fairness. Fairness is not putting people down to bring others up. @Somanysocks* trying to illustrate that it IS every man. Well there’s no point in trying then.

I’m sorry you don’t feel the three women per week dying at the hands of men aren’t worth trying for. Especially because the reason you’re not trying is because you weren’t asked nicely enough.

[quote Pumperthepumper]@Crystalclair

#ALLMEN is inflammatory is inflammatory. Why do you feel the need to do that? Still?[/quote]
Because it is the hashtag being used. It is inflammatory

Because it is the hashtag being used. It is inflammatory

But it wasn’t relevant to the rest of your post. Why the need to keep banging that drum? If I say now: I know not all men are rapists, can we put it aside now? And instead look at what men, All Men, all of Average Dave’s friends, can do to stop any men being violent?

Nobody has said all men.

It feels like any discussion of class based issues when discussing sex based oppression need to come with a disclaimer.

The views in this post are concerned with the sex based oppression of women and male pattern violence. Discussion of men refers to men as a class. To avoid any inadvertent offence we would like to make it abundantly clear that this is not in anyway a personal attack on you for existing on planet earth as a man. When talking of men taking responsibility this is men as a class taking responsibility for either choosing to promote a culture of systemic and normalised misogyny, or challenge it. As a man with privilege you have benefits in our society that women (as a class) do not have, consequently you are being asked to consider whether your actions, attitudes and words promote equality or entrench a culture of sexism. Once more, discussion of male pattern violence and any other systemic issues is not in any way accusing you of being a sexual predator or a murderer. Obviously, the written word does not convey tone very well so we would like to make it very clear that all posts should be read with a happy, friendly tone from smiley kind-hearted women who would be devastated if they possibly caused any negative feelings. Should you mistake our passion on this topic for anger then we sincerely apologise for any distress this has personally caused you, and we would like to personally thank you for being a great guy who has refrained from sexually assaulting anyone. Thank you so much for graciously reading our posts

Who had said all men?

Or is this about the fact that many women don't know which men and so are cautious in general, and some men (and women) see this as very unfair and mean?

Not all men are rapists. And most men also aren’t doing shit to support us. #veryfewmenareprincipled

@2021ismyyear

I just don’t think hashtags and people coming onto mumsnet to moan about decent men is the answer. It really isn’t going to change things. You want action... bloody do some action... show me what you’ve done to change things for the better?

Maybe you should stay of pornhub and tell your fictional husband to do likewise

I’m absolutely sick of these posts accusing us of saying that all men are violent/misogynists. Once again, of course that isn’t the case!!!

What is your point @Duchess? I truly believe you have brought your children up well. So have I. My young adult son has never given me a moment's worry through his teen years. He is respectful, kind to his brothers and sisters as they are to him. But he is experiencing hate right now. I quote a text my son showed me yesterday.

(girl from college) "how does it feel being white privileged AND a man)

(Son) are you joking?

(G F C) No, I'm deadly serious

(Son) hey I thought we were friends? I understand how you might be feeling, but why are you directing at me?

(G F C) cos I'm fucked off with all men and little boys. So me and xyz have decided that we are gonna keep ourselves to ourselves cos we cant really trust anyone. Hey I know you're cool but tbf you prob gonna turn out like all the rest of the dicks, so.. soz'

(Son) ok, I dont even know how to reply to that tbh. Like I said, I get why you're angry but talk to me, you're making out like I've personally attacked you. And white privileged?! Huh where did that come from? I'm on your side !!!

And much like this.

I'm not saying it's EVERY man, my point is it is probably more than you think, men's aggression flares at the slightest thing, and that man in the white van may give his wife/partner no indication when at home that he is a prick to total strangers for no reason.

@NiceGerbil

CrystalClair

I'm not sure what your point is.

We use stats to try and make things better my targeting various groups/ trying to understand the structural issues issues causing different groups to do different things.

Do you think this is not a good idea?

It happens all the time.

I don't think though that when it's said. X population is more likely to be involved in why let's see if we can work out why and do something about it, that that's a bad thing?

Sorry not read the whole thread but this does feel like a side track and I'm not sure what your original point was!

I was originally responding to @Duchess who accused me wrongfully of being racist.

I agree about using stats to make things better, but honestly my point was that on London it is mainly black on black crime regarding knife crime. When the papers list and show photos it is mostly and sadly black youths.

I was explaining why I said what I said.

It gets the discussion away from the crucial, and more complex, fact that whilst obviously not all men sexually assault or murder women, too many engage in behaviours that promote a sexist society and allow misogyny to go unchecked.

Across multiple threads once we get past the usual arguments, there's two final arguments:

1. Why don't you have any solutions? (And variations of this)
2. You aren't able to get solutions because you're using the wrong tone / being passionate about this topic alienates all the good men who would otherwise be queuing up in solidarity

Both seem to rest on the fact that the responsibility for fixing male pattern violence in a sexist society lies with women.

@Pumperthepumper

Because it is the hashtag being used. It is inflammatory

But it wasn’t relevant to the rest of your post. Why the need to keep banging that drum? If I say now: I know not all men are rapists, can we put it aside now? And instead look at what men, All Men, all of Average Dave’s friends, can do to stop any men being violent?

We are all banging our own drums constantly on this thread, you included