The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

BaaMooCluckOink
I do see what you mean, and I do agree with you on education from a young age.

I also think that what some take as aggressive man hating/toxic feminism generally translates as 'women are talking about issues in a way that makes me feel uncomfortable and I'd rather not examine my own actions or attitudes'

These discussions about male violence, systemic oppression of women and normalised misogyny have been going on for years though. There's only so long we can take the nicely nicely try not to hurt the feelings of men who think they're good guys.
I can only speak for myself, but I'm at the point where I'm fed up of being expected to pander to the egos of men who consider themselves good guys whilst they only listen to women if we smile and ask them nicely.

[quote Crystalclair]@Baamoo actually I completely agree. I do understand and agree with what is trying to be done. But, it's the way it's being done that I don't like, because it will have the complete opposite effect on the types of men we would want to get through to.

Being told in an aggressive manner that you are part of the problem is counterproductive. Getting the message out there to get all men on board as opposed to telling them how they're responsible is far more likely to have the reaction we want.

It's not sugar coating- its basic respect. We cant ask for respect and then show the opposite.

And before anyone says it, I have see LOADS of examples of aggressive man hating examples over the last few days.[/quote]
So how do we do that? We have Average Dave here, he’s not a violent man, he’s never raised a hand to his wife, he does the odd chore here and there, works full time and enjoys a beer or two at the weekend. He’s never been to a prostitute but he’s been on a few stag nights at strip clubs. He’s never groped a woman on a train but he’s been known to wolf whistle at women he doesn’t know when out with his friends. Dave believes that NAMALT, of course, and thinks it’s women’s responsibility not to go out alone in the dark, although as a keen runner himself, he often does. Dave has two daughters who he loves and is nice to. He doesn’t believe in the gender pay gap, thinks feminists are a group of whining hairy killjoys and does not believe he nor any of his friends hate women. He’s not above sending the odd WhatsApp about giving his female boss one, as are his friends.

How do we, as women, get Dave onside?

@LastRoloIsMine

I don't want to report anyone. I just want people not to be so spiteful to one another, based on their views

Maybe you should take your own advice.

You are very vocal with your views Rooty as is your right. You do not hide the fact that you are a huge supporter of males and you think women who discuss feminisim and the issues females face are nasty men hating bullies.

You see some posters as spiteful I see them simply disagreeing with you.

This a million times

@piedpiper1806

This is what I do not understand and I speak as a woman. We shout for equality but when something tragic, like this happens, we have no issue reminding men how unequal we actually are and feel.

I do feel bad for men, all being tarred with the same brush because of some unhinged, evil individuals. I wonder how woman would take it if the shoe were on the other foot and we were being judged on the actions of a select few.

I also do not think it is up to men to make woman feel safe, that is not their responsibility. That's on the women. Of course it's a shame that they have to 'keep themselves safe' but it's the same for men having to also keep themselves safe, men get murdered too you know.

What happened to that poor girl in London is obviously very tragic, however, it's a rarity, especially in those circumstances. It really is rare and she was genuinely in the wrong place at the wrong time, it's very sad, but all these women, making it about them, being up to high doe, acting as if woman are getting snatched off the streets and murdered daily is a bit too much and makes me cringe a bit to be honest.

It is not about all women, it is about this one young woman who was tragically kidnapped and murdered by this one sick individual. If a man is going to carry out these actions, then he is going to carry out these actions regardless of how loud we shout about it. Demonising normal innocent men is not going to help the issue at all, but actually alienate them even more.

@piedpiper1806 you speak as woman...

[quote Twistered]@Crystalclair
Can you show me some examples?
Genuinely interested[/quote]
Without screenshoting my social media accounts, twitter, my sons messages from young women at college etc.. then no, I can't .

Doesn't mean it's not happening. Other posters have said this too.

Well if you think Dave will suddenly go "oh OK, righty ho I'll stop what I'm doing " with an approach of anger, then I'd say you're pretty naive. Most people want respect and whilst I dont expect a women to plead and beg (of course I wouldn't) anger generally has the opposite effect.

If they are good guys - they will totally understand the pent up anger and be unfazed and proactive, but it's not the good guys we have to worry about is it?

You can't fight fire with fire.

Last message was in response to @pumper

@RootyT00t

And actually sink, If you do reading instead of skipping around with glee at how clever you are, youl find that I have responded to many posts over the last two days listening to and empathising with their experience.

It's easy to paint a stranger on the internet to be a total arsehole, but doesn't make it true.

@RootyT00t Just as its to pretend to be something your not to undermine womans fears.

@Crystalclair

Well if you think Dave will suddenly go "oh OK, righty ho I'll stop what I'm doing " with an approach of anger, then I'd say you're pretty naive. Most people want respect and whilst I dont expect a women to plead and beg (of course I wouldn't) anger generally has the opposite effect.

If they are good guys - they will totally understand the pent up anger and be unfazed and proactive, but it's not the good guys we have to worry about is it?

You can't fight fire with fire.

So how can we, as women, get Dave to change his mind and actively take a stance towards helping women?

Average Dave is a good guy, he’s well thought of, he’s nice to his neighbours and regularly offered to get shopping for them during lockdown. He thinks women who wear low cut tops should cover up if they don’t want comments, and thinks jokes about murdered women are just a laugh, and everyone is too serious these days, you can’t joke about anything any more.

What’s your solution, as a woman, to getting through to Dave?

Is there ever a guaranteed solution?

Possible solutions -Raising awareness, stats, campaigns, people sharing their stories, without the aggressive undertone that men HAVE to change. It's inflammatory, and whilst I agree women are angry, people like Dave are less likely to take note and will get on the defensive. Rightly or wrongly its human nature.

Delivery is everything if you want the desired effect.

Good men will of course understand the anger and differentiate that they are not personally the problem. Men like Dave may not. It's the Dave's we are trying to get through to, right?

The main options with Average Dave are:
A) He's a generally good guy, in which case he's probably able to engage his brain, look at recent news coverage, look at what his female friends are saying on social media and have enough about him to realise that even if he doesn't agree with everything put forward, there's still a very real problem. If Average Dave is a good guy then he might feel uncomfortable but because he is a good guy he isn't going to deny the problem and turn it into why women need to give him a gold star for not being a sexual predator. Because he is a decent guy, he sees people talking about how sexist jokes and casual misogyny are part of the problem.and that stings. Because he is a good guy he knows that any uncomfortable feelings he has about some of his previous conduct doesn't come close to women being assaulted and killed. Average Dave being a decent guy isn't going to refuse to engage because women haven't asked nicely enough. Average Dave realises that sometimes one event can be a tipping point for change and that the current events have put an issue into the spotlight that has been ignored too much for too long.

B) He considers himself a good guy, but isn't interested in recent events beyond 'oh that's so sad'. He sees women talking about the issues passionately and dismisses them as angry, shouty women. Average Dave here sees his female friends and contacts talking about the issues of male violence and sexism, but instead of listening he comments asking what about all the men who are murdered, and accuses people of exaggerating misogyny because he doesn't know anyone who has raped someone. Average Dave thinks it's really unfair that him and his mates are being blamed because they're good guys, they've not sexually assaulted anyone, and if women start saying that sexism is part of the wider culture then that's 'political correctness gone mad' and 'you can't joke about anything these days'.

Average Dave A isn't going to engage or not engage based on whether women speak in the right sort of tone, because he is a generally good guy living in an oppressive system. He might feel uncomfortable with what he learns, but because he isn't an arse he is open to learning.

Average Dave B is not a good guy. Nothing women do will change his view. No amount of tone policing, self-censorship, qualifiers about the good guys etc is going to get Average Dave B on board because he fundamentally does not like women. It might not manifest itself as sexual assault, but the misogyny is there. The only way Average Dave B will change is if the men around him make it clear that they consider misogyny to be unacceptable.

@Crystalclair

Is there ever a guaranteed solution?

Possible solutions -Raising awareness, stats, campaigns, people sharing their stories, without the aggressive undertone that men HAVE to change. It's inflammatory, and whilst I agree women are angry, people like Dave are less likely to take note and will get on the defensive. Rightly or wrongly its human nature.

Delivery is everything if you want the desired effect.

Good men will of course understand the anger and differentiate that they are not personally the problem. Men like Dave may not. It's the Dave's we are trying to get through to, right?

Dave knows all this though, Dave is an average male in the UK. He knows three women per week are killed by men, he thinks they’re all probably addicts or something, not women like his very average wife. And obviously, some men are psychopaths, which Dave is not. Dave has heard stories of women being followed home at night and wonders why they were out alone at night, that’s not something he would allow his daughters to do. Dave has heard of the #MeToo campaign but hasn’t really given it much thought, it’s probably just a bit of banter and women can be far too serious these days. And anyway, he’d never grope a women at work. He sends pretty graphic sexual WhatsApp about what he’d like to do to that boss but that’s different, that’s just banter and anyway, she’ll never see them.

Here’s my solution to Average Dave - it’s one (or more!) of his male pals telling him he’s completely out of order after sending that WhatsApp. It’s one of his male friends starting a campaign to end male violence, explaining why to Dave and encouraging Dave to take part. It’s one or more of Dave’s brothers saying they think strip clubs are
exploitative and why don’t they just go paintballing instead for the stag. And so on, and so on. Don’t you see how that would have an impact on the way Dave, a Good, average man, sees women?

The only way Average Dave B will change is if the men around him make it clear that they consider misogyny to be unacceptable.

Pumperthepumper and LolaSmiles - you have put it so well.

That's why we need more men on side so they can help by reaching out to the ones who will not listen to us or take us seriously.

I haven’t seen any man hating posts. There’s a lot of anger at male violence, which has exploded this last week followed the murder of Sarah Everett. But the anger was already there, because of our own experiences of abuse by men or because of the experiences of other women.

Yes, it isn’t all men. I know that, I’m married to a man who isn’t like that. But sadly, the fact remains that a lot of men do abuse women and children; I experienced this as a child at the hands of my F and others. My DSis’s first marriage was abusive as well.

And, as can be seen on these boards, there are a lot of abusive relationships. So, whilst I agree that it isn’t all men, or even the majority, but not just a small percentage, either. Not with the numbers of women who have experienced abuse in their lifetimes.

I think decent grown up men should be able to cope with some anger, realising that it isn’t directed at them. A lot of them will have daughters, wouldn’t they want to do what they can to make the world a safer place for them?

@Pumperthepumper

That was a very good example. I suspect a lot of the decent men we know would be very uncomfortable about such a WhatsApp message, but wouldn’t speak up to object. (Although they wouldn’t dream of sending one like that themselves.

I'm answering a few posters at once here.

I agree that men should be able to handle so anger. But the reality is that many wont

I know a few Dave's, and anger would not work. More understanding of the situation may.

I'm not trying to outsmart anyone here, it's simply my view. I think anger is counterproductive.

And in response to a poster not seeing many angry man hating posts on here - I'm talking about in RL. What I see, hear, or experienced in directly.

@Crystalclair

I'm answering a few posters at once here.

I agree that men should be able to handle so anger. But the reality is that many wont

I know a few Dave's, and anger would not work. More understanding of the situation may.

I'm not trying to outsmart anyone here, it's simply my view. I think anger is counterproductive.

And in response to a poster not seeing many angry man hating posts on here - I'm talking about in RL. What I see, hear, or experienced in directly.

Ok, you don’t think women being angry at Dave works.

Do you agree that why would probably work is Dave’s male friends/brothers/colleagues being angry with him? Or at least, angry enough to tell him off for the WhatsApps?

@Crystalclair

That’s where decent men need to speak up! You’re right, the Daves of this world probably wouldn’t listen to a woman they perceived to be an angry feminist. But if one of the recipients of such misogynistic texts were to speak up, eventually a couple of the others (who were already uncomfortable about the content) might have the courage to speak up as well.

That's why we need more men on side so they can help by reaching out to the ones who will not listen to us or take us seriously
Exactly this.

There's roughly 4 groups of men:
Group 1: Allies of women who are already on board and their actions demonstrate their commitment to equality. They aren't perfect, because obviously there is no perfect feminist, but they are consciously trying.

Group 2: Average Dave who is on board challenging big issues, but has a blind spot where everyday sexism is concerned. Some of his actions help, some of his actions hinder, but when he sees a tipping point event and women talking about the issues, he might get a bit defensive because he's generally considered himself a good guy, but he wants to listen and is open to learning.

Group 3: Average Dave who would say he's on board with equality, he disagrees with violence towards women, and has a massive blind spot regarding everyday sexism. When he sees tipping point event and women discussing systemic issues, instead of listening he gets defensive, centres his feelings, starts with the whataboutery, and soon his underlying misogyny becomes glaringly obvious.

Group 4: Incel men and through-and-through misogynists. The ones who think equality has gone too far, women are the oppressive class, that men are victims of a society that privileges women.

So how can we, as women, get Dave to change his mind and actively take a stance towards helping women?

8Average Dave is a good guy, he’s well thought of, he’s nice to his neighbours and regularly offered to get shopping for them during lockdown. He thinks women who wear low cut tops should cover up if they don’t want comments, and thinks jokes about murdered women are just a laugh, and everyone is too serious these days, you can’t joke about anything any more*

What’s your solution, as a woman, to getting through to Dave?

Women chat give through to Dave, because he doesn't listen to and respect women.

Dave will listen to his friends thought. When Dave says
“ woah, look at the tits on that” as a 14 year old school girl walks past , his mates need to say “ shut up Dave” or “ that’s not cool Dave” or “ you’re a paedo Dave “ . Or everyone go silent and look at him.

If people stop hanging out with Dave because of his attitudes he will soon STFU.

If no woman dates him he might even examine his values.

It’s Dave’s mates/ colleagues / brothers and fathers that need to show Dave the error of his ways. Instead of posting on SM about how nice they are and how mean women are to them.

Women can’t get through to Dave, because he doesn't listen to and respect women

Women can’t get through to Dave, because he doesn't listen to and respect women

Nicely put

@Flowers24

I've re read my responses and it looks bad, i.dont want to come across that way as that is not what I'm trying to be x

That must have been a difficult post to write, and my hat is off to you (that's the big Ascot-type hat with the silk flowers and the feathers that I got really cheap in a charity shop in Windsor and keep for Special, you understand, not just any old everyday hat).

Well done for having an open mind and being prepared to look twice instead of entrenching yourself because you'd been disagreed with.

Wherever your opinion ends up, you've shown that you are able to think. Yay you!

Incidentally, I absolutely agree that almost all lives matter; I have a little list of exceptions, though. I'm sure you have one of those too.

@Crystalclair

I guess now that your husband has spoken, anyone with an opposing opinion should zip it.

I will stand up for my daughter,
I will also stand up for my son.

If you honestly think this all men movement will stop bad people doing bad things, then I feel you are ever so slightly naive.

I also think you should zip it! I have a son and a daughter also, my son respects his sister and the other way around he's a child and realises that men and boy's have more freedom to dress as they like go where they want without feeling afraid or judged. I'm scared for them both in this current climate and your aggression is not helpful.

@LastRoloIsMine

As I've said many times, the way they express those views, the language they used, the way they treat other people.

So unless women talk in a way you approve of you deem them bullies and man hating?

So women must have their language controlled?
They cannot express anger or disgust or passion?
They must speak kindly at all times?

@LastRoloisMine you're posts are in no way bullying, I'm pretty sure @RootyT00t will have an issue with JK Rowling as well.