The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

Men say it to derail a conversation they find uncomfortable and minimise what women are saying - its misogynistic and to suggest it is offensive it just a tactic to silence women.

I am not about to be quiet because of their ego and spare their feelings when they suggest they are hurt by the accusations.

Every woman I know has been assaulted on a regular basis.

People who say "unless you consider every group I won't listen to you". Fuck off, seriously Fuck off, what group of people would you get away with saying this to other than women?

The women who are complaining also have male relatives who they care about and are willing to support and protect from violence.

They still deserve to have their own individual truths listened to.

It’s another form of silencing women standing up to male violence

No, it's about standing up to the people who use tragic events to stir up hatred, mistrust and discrimination against 50% of the population, the vast majority of whom have done nothing wrong.

Of COURSE it’s not all men. But the reason we are so scared is because we don’t know which men. So all men now need to step up and help.

Of corse it's not all men. Only an idiot would think so.

I think NAMALT stops us from saying the obvious truth. It’s not all men, but it is most men. Whether that’s overt physical violence or not. It might just be the feeling that they are entitled to a woman’s attention, or that they think they’ve gotten consent when really they’ve used emotional blackmail to get it, or they’ve had a strop because they’ve been “friend zoned”, or that they’ve listened to their mates making misogynistic jokes and said nothing.

Yes, I think it’s most men. DH agrees with me, we’ve been talking a lot about this over the last few days. Men need to step up and acknowledge their shit.

Those statistics (97% of young women sexually harassed and 80% of all women sexually assaulted) just keep pinging round in my brain when I hear 'not all men'. Because in order to harass 97% of young women and assault 80% of all women what percentage of men must we actually be talking about? It can't possibly be a small percentage (when would they sleep?!!) when it happens to such a huge majority of women can it? So do none of them have partners, daughters, mothers, or are those partners, daughters, mothers just unaware of how they actually behave when they're not there? Are even the men we believe to be decent actually not, because the numbers don't add up otherwise do they?

Oh look, @RootyT00t has popped by to deliver the usual contrary bullshit they have to post on nearly every thread that contains strong opinions. How predictable.
Men can win, if they want to. They always win.
However, just sitting back and getting offended by people pointing out the statistics that show that they are the sole cause of the vast majority of violence against, murder, and all rapes, of women isn't really helping anybody is it? Or are we about to see a campaign being started to shield men from the truth and protect their feelings?
This needs to make every generation of men feel uncomfortable. It needs to make them want to change it. Maybe, just maybe, then things l
might start to happen to make things just a bit less shit for us and our daughters.

@Tinkat

It’s another form of silencing women standing up to male violence

No, it's about standing up to the people who use tragic events to stir up hatred, mistrust and discrimination against 50% of the population, the vast majority of whom have done nothing wrong.

Discrimination?!

Give me a fucking break.

@bourbonne

"Men can't win either."

What is actually the problem for men?

As an adult, I accept that there are barriers between me and children I don't know. I'm not offended by that, even though I know I'm not a risk to children. If I go up to a strange child in the park and offer them a sweet and they run back to their mum, they have absolutely done the right thing. (Just to be clear, I don't actually do that!)

Because children don't know which adults are dangerous. And women don't know which men are dangerous.

I have never known a decent man be offended by that. What a lily-livered whiner they'd have to be!

Yes! This! Thank you for this argument I think that explains it really clearly.

@powershowerforanhour

He's really genuinely offended by women's fear.

If he had a huge big strong (like, big enough to cause death or life changing injury if it felt like it) but friendly dog and took it for a walk in the park off the lead, and a woman coming towards them looked anxiously at the dog and backed away, would he get all arsey that she was scared and bring the dog up close to her explaining how it wouldn't hurt a fly and- like the majority of dogs- had never bitten anyone? Or would he just think oh well maybe she has been bitten before, call the dog close to him or put it on the lead and give her a respectful wide berth so she can get past without having to go close to it?

Other dogs are at more risk of being bitten by dogs in the park than people are- but that doesn't make the fear some people have of dogs stupid or offensive.

Men are not dogs. You are being a misandrist.

On the taking offence: Tbh I've had an ongoing discussion about this for 25 years with my DH. He appears to be getting it.

"Not all men"

It's the "All lives matter" equivalent.

We KNOW it's not all men but it doesn't make one bit of difference to the actual issue.

Perfectly put.

To pretend there is no nuance in this discussion is disingenuous.... yes, NAMALT is hard to take when you on receiving end but so is white oppression and privilege.
I’m not racist, never done a racist thing in my life as far as I know, treat all people the same, give money to charities that advocate for BAME equality issues and totally accept that as a white person I’m inherently privileged and part of a group that have oppressed other groups. But part of me wants to cry at my feeling of unfairness of it all ....I’m not like that but I’ve got to be responsible for those of my group who I’d never in a million years associate myself with ..... white supremacists, racists and a group that historical enslaved another group.
The simplification of this type of feminism to a partisan us vs them with no nuance and no attempt to understand how it feels for the majority of men who have done absolutely ‘wrong’ and are also disadvantaged by this toxic patriarchy but have to be responsible for those who do is partisan politics and achieves nothing.

But it doesn’t matter if it is not all men. The bloody point is that we don’t know which.

Crossposted with you Deathgrip but I see we're in accord, bit of a depressing realisation for me today. I wish my DH agreed, he's in the 'huffy and defensive' camp unfortunately, which is making it all doubly rage inducing for me.

He's really genuinely offended by women's fear.

If all the violent, sexual predators had that info tattooed on their forehead then we wouldn't need to view all men with suspicion. Perhaps your husband could put his hurt feelings to one side for a moment and think about what it's like to live knowing how vulnerable you are but having no reliable means to identify who poses the greatest threat so we modify our behaviour, it's a survival strategy. If you have daughters please make sure they know they shouldn't give a single shit about offending some random guy if they feel threatened in anyway.

In my opinion if you're offended by women's actions to protect themselves you've made it all about you and you are not one of the good guys.

I'm tired of having to apologise, which is in effect what this is, before I'm allowed to speak about harassment and assault. I'm so tired of it. I'm fucking sick of it. I've been doing it for over 20 years.

@Tinkat

Sorry OP, but the problem with hating all men is that very many of us women, and most men, don't agree with you, so we just stop listening, walk away and leave you to your own self destructive arguments. Then you complain that nobody is listening. Go figure. Stop hating people who have done nothing wrong and then we can have a sensible discussion.

The OP doesn't say anything about hating men.

@weebarra

DH did point out that males are more at risk of violence. He is right. He's really genuinely offended by women's fear. This is a man who I've been with for over 20 years, who supposed me after rape, through breast cancer and three pregnancies. I wonder if it's so beyond his ken, he thinks other men are all like him.

He needs to get a fucking grip.

Men are at a higher risk of physical violence - mostly from other men.
Men are at a much lower risk of sexual violence, but again mostly from other men.

How many men are murdered each week by an intimate partner in the U.K.?

He is offended by our fear? How many times has your husband been raped or assaulted by those who are much bigger, stronger ans more powerful than him?

It’s not because it’s “beyond his ken”. My DH gets it, he knows what i and his ex and his sister and mother and my sister have been through.

The fact that he’s telling you, a victim of rape, that womens’ fear of men is offensive, says a lot about his character and none of it good.

No, it's about standing up to the people who use tragic events to stir up hatred, mistrust and discrimination against 50% of the population, the vast majority of whom have done nothing wrong

Read the news. Look at the most wanted or the arrests made that week. Look at all of the crimes throughout history. Look at not only violence against women and other men but also against animals and children. They will be nearly all men.

Not all men commit crimes that’s true - but of all the crimes that have been committed the majority are committed by men.

If all the violent, sexual predators had that info tattooed on their forehead then we wouldn't need to view all men with suspicion

I think this is part of the problem. There aren’t two separate groups: men and violent predators. This is why men can say - oh I’m nothing like that, I would never kill or rape or physically harm a woman. It allows a level of distance.

I can guarantee you that many of the men who’ve traumatised the women on this thread don’t think of themselves as violent predators. Those rapists lurking down an alley are nothing like me, they think. But their actions traumatise nonetheless or at least contribute to our distrust of men.

Schrodingers rapist, not all men are rapists but women don't know which ones are until they are alone with them. Or whether she is safer having a male friend walk her home or walk home alone, since most women know their attackers.

He's really genuinely offended by women's fear

I’m offended that he thinks he’s got the right to be offended.

I’ve brought my son up to understand that women are rightly fearful on the streets after dark, in places where there few people around. If he sees a woman alone he crosses the road, drops back so she gets well ahead of him, basically behaves in ways to let her know she’s safe and he doesn’t pose a threat

All mothers of sons need to teach them this. We know our men aren’t like this; other women don’t.

@Effic

To pretend there is no nuance in this discussion is disingenuous.... yes, NAMALT is hard to take when you on receiving end but so is white oppression and privilege. I’m not racist, never done a racist thing in my life as far as I know, treat all people the same, give money to charities that advocate for BAME equality issues and totally accept that as a white person I’m inherently privileged and part of a group that have oppressed other groups. But part of me wants to cry at my feeling of unfairness of it all ....I’m not like that but I’ve got to be responsible for those of my group who I’d never in a million years associate myself with ..... white supremacists, racists and a group that historical enslaved another group. The simplification of this type of feminism to a partisan us vs them with no nuance and no attempt to understand how it feels for the majority of men who have done absolutely ‘wrong’ and are also disadvantaged by this toxic patriarchy but have to be responsible for those who do is partisan politics and achieves nothing.

Oh how good of you to have not knowingly done a racist thing in your life and to give money to charities that advocate for 'BAME' (which basically means 'not white', if that's not othering I don't know what is) equality. If you feel being born white, with the immediate advantages and privileges that come along with it, is 'unfair' then you really need to do some reading. And you haven't 'got to be responsible' for white supremacists and slavers. Just as I don't have to think about how it feels for the majority of men. I hope it makes the majority of them uncomfortable enough that they actually want to do something about it at last, even if it is for selfish reasons and because they believe themselves, rather than women, deserve better.

Tinkat

It is silencing whenever we try to discuss violence from men against women and girls we have to then be told we are wrong to want to not talk about violence against men or not all men are violent

The issue we are wanting to discuss is male violence against women and girls

That it nothing else but once against as you have proven derailing abs trying to change the narrative of the discussion that is a form of silencing

But thanks for proving my point