The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

@DrSbaitso

Still shaking my head at "the reason it's easier for you guys is because we are in the wake of a murdered woman". Yes, when women are murdered, it does make bullshit "points" about men being the victims much harder to defend. How irritating that must be!

I would ask if you could hear yourself, but the answer is obvious.

@DrSbaitso don't shake your head think. I don't believe any WOMAN would say that..

@duchess I'm sure you have got respectful children as do I. However, I'm teaching them in a different way to you, and that's my right. I dont need to prove how well adjusted and respectful they are. It's not a competition, just different views.

You can tell me I'm wrong, or my parenting is bad. But as you dont know us and I dont know you then it's hardly worth the angst, dont you agree?

@DrSbaitso

Thank you all. Husband says thank you too. I got him the beer.

One last one...

"Well, husband, it is true that not all men are like that."

"Yeah well, of course it is. I mean, I'm amazing, right? That's obvious. But it's not the point, is it? The point is that too many men are like that and it affects your life. Why aren't you allowed to say so?"

"Well you could be murdered or attacked too."

"Well yeah, but it's not going to be by a woman who followed me while I was walking home, is it?"

@DrSbaitso it really is that simple My Husband grew up in a society where some women are equal if they are well off and come from "good families" like his but he's been in London for 30yrs and despite the fact he's the main earner and I work part time we are equal. He impresses on our son the need to respect women champions young women in STEM etc. Why do some men this concept so difficult

@IM0GEN

So how can we, as women, get Dave to change his mind and actively take a stance towards helping women?

8Average Dave is a good guy, he’s well thought of, he’s nice to his neighbours and regularly offered to get shopping for them during lockdown. He thinks women who wear low cut tops should cover up if they don’t want comments, and thinks jokes about murdered women are just a laugh, and everyone is too serious these days, you can’t joke about anything any more*

What’s your solution, as a woman, to getting through to Dave?

Women chat give through to Dave, because he doesn't listen to and respect women.

Dave will listen to his friends thought. When Dave says
“ woah, look at the tits on that” as a 14 year old school girl walks past , his mates need to say “ shut up Dave” or “ that’s not cool Dave” or “ you’re a paedo Dave “ . Or everyone go silent and look at him.

If people stop hanging out with Dave because of his attitudes he will soon STFU.

If no woman dates him he might even examine his values.

It’s Dave’s mates/ colleagues / brothers and fathers that need to show Dave the error of his ways. Instead of posting on SM about how nice they are and how mean women are to them.

Exactly, that’s it in a nutshell. It’s not the anger that’s the problem - because, let’s face it, who isn’t angry at the rate men are committing acts of violence? - it’s that Average Good Man Dave won’t listen to angry women. He will listen to angry men though.

So men need to step up.

[quote Crystalclair]@lola , what about our young men who are heading to college tomorrow to face a lot of hate because they are male? Made to feel that they, on a personal level are part of the problem.

Fighting hate with hate is not the way, its creating more devision, so dont kid yourself that this is the way forward.[/quote]
But that's not true my DC's are the youngest cousins and I have 2 Nephews at UNI who were not born in the UK and are over 6ft they are not worried about facing hate as they treat female cousins around same age as equals but are protective of them also. They are super protective of my boy/girl twins as they are much younger plus worry more about other young men being violent.
If men or boy's feel "part of the problem" maybe they are.

@Crystalclair

Yes, I agree however this has caused hate, and its happening whether you see that or not.

@Crystalclair how does calling out violence against cause hate?

DuchessHastings
I don't doubt there's some young men in colleges and universities who feel they are experiencing hate when women challenge systemic sexism and male violence.
I would be very interested to hear how many of these men experiencing hate are actually experiencing hate directed at them personally, simply for the act of existing on this planet as a man, vs how many are perceiving hate because their female peers are discussing female oppression at the hands of the male class.

I think it’s often the case that women talking about male violence/misogyny makes some men feel uncomfortable and they react with anger. They don’t want to believe that there is truth in what they’re being told, so they complain that it’s all about women hating men. Then they don’t have to listen to what they’re being told or do anything about it.

@Crystalclair

Yes, well funny enough I do think poor man when it comes to my son, who is respectful and polite, yet is receiving hate messages from young women at his college, direct at all the young men there

I have daughters too. I'm interested in what's fair, not moving backwards and causing division

Your son is receiving hate messages from who exactly? I have two nephews at UNI and they haven't received any negativity they have however sent me Mothers day greetings via text and told twin boy to take care of his sister. They are not angels but they defiantly don't feel hurt that women are standing up for themselves. They are both young black men so are used to being scrutinised by society. I think you should teach your son some resilience as if he's white he has privilege and if he's black like my yr 8 son and Nephews his risk comes from other men not women.

Please dont tell me that's not true. I'm speaking from my son's experience of college

@Mittens030869

I think it’s often the case that women talking about male violence/misogyny makes some men feel uncomfortable and they react with anger. They don’t want to believe that there is truth in what they’re being told, so they complain that it’s all about women hating men. Then they don’t have to listen to what they’re being told or do anything about it.

I absolutely agree with this, but also, I think there’s also a solid, unflinching attitude of some men (our pal Dave here again) who couldn’t really care if women are offended by something they say because it’s easy to laugh women off as humourless or the old ‘banter, just bants!’ rebuff.

But I think there are very, very few men who don’t care if they offend other men. I think the vast majority of men, if told ‘actually, I find that really offensive’ by another man would think twice about saying it again.

Please dont tell me that's not true. I'm speaking from my son's experience of college
I'm not saying it's not true.
IIRC, I said up thread that if your son is receiving messages from his directing hatred to him for existing as a man then these messages are bullying and they should be reported to the college, along with screenshots of the messages as evidence.

I do stand by my view that there is a huge difference between being targeted and personally sent hateful messages for being a man and deciding that female students discussing men's (as a class) oppression of women, systemic sexism and male violence must be a personal attack on you. Women should be able to discussion male pattern violence without men saying 'but you can't say that because it hurts my feelings'.

I still think it would be interesting to survey all these young men who are claiming they are experiencing hatred for being men to see whether they are personally reviving hateful abuse or whether they're getting upset because women are discussing the male oppression of women.

@Zofloramummy

I think I’ve had a fairly average life, I’m reasonably attractive (or I used to be when younger!), I was a very straight laced, studious child. I was 14 when a family friend stuck his tongue down my throat at a party and then asked me to get off the school bus a stop early to have sex with him. I was 15 when my uncle (by marriage) assaulted me on a sleep over at my aunties. I was 16 when a man in a train in an empty carriage masturbated in front of me in the middle of the afternoon. I’ve had sex in relationships that I didn’t want to have, I’ve had sex when single that I can’t remember because I was too drunk. My experiences in early life led me to believe there was something wrong with me. That I must have some sign over my head that made me a target. It affected my self confidence and self esteem.

I’m now in my mid forties, the veteran of 2 abusive relationships and happily single. Do I trust all men? No. Have my experiences made me very wary of men? Yes. Do I think all men are the same? No. But they don’t come with labels, and as a parent of a dd it makes me very anxious that in my lifetime and that if my mothers too nothing has changed.

We are still expected to take responsibility for men’s actions; what were you wearing? How much did you drink? Did you kiss him, smile at him etc?

As a person who was abused by more than one man at the brink of what should have been the dawning of my sexuality I acknowledge that those experiences damaged me in such a way that even as a middle aged slightly plump woman I am still cautious around men I don’t know very well.

It isn’t right, it isn’t the world I want my daughter to grow up in.

You did nothing wrong, I was incredibly small and young looking even when I graduated UNI but at 13 I was followed home from school by a teacher who knew my mum was working and that my older sister had GCSE prep sessions, My mums best friend was luckily at home so I went to her place. I have lots of stories from when I was either underage or looked incredibly young when grown men or older teen boys have tried to take advantage but in my twenties at UNI I realised through talking to other young women it's a common experience, It doesn't make it right though. Its defiantly not right and my son is aware of my views as is my Daughter.

@Crystalclair

My son has more chance of being a victim to knife crime (London) than my daughters do getting raped or murdered.

@Crystalclair I hear you as I'm raising black boy\girl twins in London but I still feel DD is more vulnerable as DS is not scared to walk alone when its dark. They go to a small private school and walk together its 15 mins away I knew their friends and parents at previous school and have tried networking with parents at new school. Most black or white boys in London who are victims of knife crime are carrying knives themselves {out of fear) or involved in clics or gangs. I'm not victim blaming as I had nightmares around knife crime when my twins were toddlers but in reality rape and sexual assault is generally inevitable to girls women whatever their class, looks or background.

@Crystalclair

*@super* that's irrelevant. My point being why should innocent men feel responsible as a whole when they havent done anything wrong. Why draw the line there? Why not a young black youths, or all muslims, etc. That mentality is wrong and counterproductive

@Crystalclair its relevant because I live in London with teenage boy/girl black twins and I worry about both my beautiful children but my DD is taught to protect herself against random men of all ages whilst DS is taught to walk away from confrontation put aside male pride and don't get involved with gangs. Which I strongly recommend for all young men.

Reading comments the last few hours. Nobody is saying the message isn’t important. Just questioning the most effective delivery. It’s been said that the bad eggs aren’t the ones we’re trying to get directly. We need the nice guys to ‘get it’ and stick up for us. That’s why I say do it nicely not in a hateful way. Don’t turn people off of helping.

He doesn’t believe in the gender pay gap, thinks feminists are a group of whining hairy killjoys

Sorry not sure who, said how do we get through to this guy? I don’t have the answers. I feel we need to provide education, adverts, psa’s etc to start young first of all. Like we do with smoking or alcohol, obesity, tax fraud etc. (Just off the cuff examples there’s probably flaws in the comparisons I know). What I am pretty certain of is that shouting and aggression will only reinforce his opinion that we are ‘whinging hairy killjoys’/the enemy. It will push him further away and mean that regardless of what anybody says they will not be inclined to help.

@BaaMooCluckOink

Reading comments the last few hours. Nobody is saying the message isn’t important. Just questioning the most effective delivery. It’s been said that the bad eggs aren’t the ones we’re trying to get directly. We need the nice guys to ‘get it’ and stick up for us. That’s why I say do it nicely not in a hateful way. Don’t turn people off of helping.

He doesn’t believe in the gender pay gap, thinks feminists are a group of whining hairy killjoys

Sorry not sure who, said how do we get through to this guy? I don’t have the answers. I feel we need to provide education, adverts, psa’s etc to start young first of all. Like we do with smoking or alcohol, obesity, tax fraud etc. (Just off the cuff examples there’s probably flaws in the comparisons I know). What I am pretty certain of is that shouting and aggression will only reinforce his opinion that we are ‘whinging hairy killjoys’/the enemy. It will push him further away and mean that regardless of what anybody says they will not be inclined to help.

But wouldn’t you agree that average Dave is much more likely to listen to other men rather than women?

So actually, it’s not about tone of delivery at all because if he pissed off a man (to the extent a man shouted about how out of order he was) would be not be more likely to listen?

@Crystalclair

*@super* that's irrelevant. My point being why should innocent men feel responsible as a whole when they havent done anything wrong. Why draw the line there? Why not a young black youths, or all muslims, etc. That mentality is wrong and counterproductive

Of course it's relevant as it's MEN and BOYS of all cultures, religions and class. How is it counterproductive to educate the boys and Men in our lives. It's also been proven that Men generally rape or sexually assault women of the same race as them.

@BaaMooCluckOink

I agree that men could be doing more to help. Not just men but definitely we could all do more to stop jokes etc that may affect how people behave. However people are not responsible for others actions. The problem is the way some people (maybe a minority) are jumping on this to further their anti-male agenda. Why is an ‘all men are responsible’ stance ok when all women/all Muslims/all black people/all gay people/all Americans/all trans etc would not be. You wouldn’t get away with this with any other group but men.

That's ridiculous men come in all colours and religions and also all countries also lots of transwoman want to invade girls and women's spaces the common denominator is male born people. I'm not anti men I have a kind Husband and my son is incredibly loving and kind towards me his twin sister and his Grandmother but that doesn't negate the fact as he gets bigger and stronger he needs to be aware that if he's walking home behind a girl or woman they might be fearful like me or his sister or his beloved Granny.

@2021ismyyear

Hang on are there other people that agree with me?! I was absolutely on my own on the other thread. I stuck up for my husband and son and the absolute witches over there were hideous to me.

Highlights included “gold star for your husband” when I mentioned the work he did for women’s rights. So basically when there is a decent man, you lot don’t want to know.

And someone asking me if I thought girls in short skirts deserved to be raped. Unbelievable.

I’m glad other people can see that it’s not ok to place blame on all MEN for the actions of some. You wouldn’t talk like that about black people or Muslims. If you do, you really should be ashamed of yourselves.

If you really want change... do something constructive that isn’t jumping on the latest bandwagon. Go work for the police (or are you all too busy bitching about them, holding “peaceful” vigils and trying to get Cressida dick out... oh the irony!!!!)

Black people and Muslims are equally men and women. I'm a black woman with a black husband and black girl boy twins. I don't think you are getting the point it's about women and girls feeling safe it's not about your lovely Husband or son or mine. The fact you mentioned black people and muslims is pretty shit as it means you don't acknowledge that we are still women. So gold star to your husband but not so much to his wife

@Pumperthepumper that’s actually what I’m saying - that it would be better coming from other men. But the ones we need to spread the message are the good guys and I wouldn’t want to alienate them. Or why would they feel inclined to help?

I get the issue, but, if the roles were reversed and it was "women are violent, women are rapists and women are doing this that and the other", I would feel a bit put out being lumped in with those horrid individuals who are doing those horrific things and would want to distance myself from it somehow. I don't know the answer, just playing devils advocate really.

[quote BaaMooCluckOink]@Pumperthepumper that’s actually what I’m saying - that it would be better coming from other men. But the ones we need to spread the message are the good guys and I wouldn’t want to alienate them. Or why would they feel inclined to help?[/quote]
How do we, as women, do that?

If they’re really Good Guys then how could we possibly alienate them?

If you saw someone being bullied, would you wait until the victim asked you in a really specific way? Or would you just instinctively think ‘nah, I’m not having this’?

[quote Crystalclair]@2021, we are the minority I'm afraid. Apparently it's ok to call out all men, but not stereotype muslims, black youths etc. Hypocrites?! You bet.

And as soon as you mention the above, they try to outsmart you by directing you to start your own thread about terrorism, because 'that's not what this is about'

I believe in equality for all. You cant say well women suffer more so now men should.

And yes, we know they say that if a man is decent, he won't mind. But I really dont believe that to be entirely true.

[/quote]
Why are you insulting muslims and black people to defend your position? We are not one homogenous group.
I'm a middle class black woman living in the UK I have children at private school.
I'm a minority but I don't sterotype other people.
The OP was talking about violence directed towards women so unsure what your going on about but you both seem to have some weird agenda

@DuchessHastings I think you are taking whatever you see here and twisting it. @2021ismyyear for example wasn’t talking about this issue (men vs women) in regards to people’s race. The race comparison while not a flawless one, is that you can’t tar an entire group with a brush. Whether it is about race, sexual orientation, disabilities, gender. Irish people are stupid. Muslims are terrorists. Americans are dumb. White people are racist. Priests are paedophiles. Women are slags. Black people are gangbangers. Disabled people are... well do you know what I can’t even bring myself to finish all this because I hoped we were getting better than this. Men are a group that can’t all be tarred with the same brush. Just the same as we don’t want to be judged on actions of other people.