Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

The problem with "#NotAllMen"

999 replies

TheABC · 12/03/2021 21:18

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

OP posts:
RootyT00t · 12/03/2021 21:19

@TheABC

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

Yes.

Men can't win either.

bellinisurge · 12/03/2021 21:22

I imagine not being at regular risk of being raped by just existing probably helps them @RootyT00t

ChangedName4TheSakeOfIt · 12/03/2021 21:23

"Not all men"

It's the "All lives matter" equivalent.

We KNOW it's not all men but it doesn't make one bit of difference to the actual issue.

WholegrainCustard · 12/03/2021 21:24

Nice Whataboutery there Root.

bourbonne · 12/03/2021 21:27

"Men can't win either."

What is actually the problem for men?

As an adult, I accept that there are barriers between me and children I don't know. I'm not offended by that, even though I know I'm not a risk to children. If I go up to a strange child in the park and offer them a sweet and they run back to their mum, they have absolutely done the right thing. (Just to be clear, I don't actually do that!)

Because children don't know which adults are dangerous. And women don't know which men are dangerous.

I have never known a decent man be offended by that. What a lily-livered whiner they'd have to be!

OhWhyNot · 12/03/2021 21:30

It’s another form of silencing women standing up to male violence

It does not need to be said

What needs to be discussed is the huge numbers of violent, degrading and intimidating acts that are committed against women and girls every day

ScreamingBeans · 12/03/2021 21:34

No YANBU

Yes it is the men's version of "All Lives Matter"

And it's insulting to the intelligence.. As if women don't know that not all men are murderers or rapists. Who ever said all men anyway?

I see Davina McCall has done a Not All Men tweet.

It's just so asinine.

Original poster
TheABC · 12/03/2021 21:35

So I should centre men then, @RootyT00t?

1 in 4 women will experience domestic abuse and 1 in 5 sexual assault during her lifetime. (Home Office stats, 2019).

I don't think we have the luxury (as a sex class) to do that.

OP posts:
hiptobeasquare · 12/03/2021 21:37

We logically know it is not all men, but it’s like saying all lives matter.

Also, yes all men benefit from a patriarchal system in ways that women don’t.

weebarra · 12/03/2021 21:49

DH did point out that males are more at risk of violence. He is right.
He's really genuinely offended by women's fear. This is a man who I've been with for over 20 years, who supposed me after rape, through breast cancer and three pregnancies. I wonder if it's so beyond his ken, he thinks other men are all like him.

blueshoes · 12/03/2021 21:49

NAMALT or not, there should be zero tolerance of misogynistic banter. In the same way it is not on to make any racist comment. I am tending towards the view that misogyny is a hate crime. It results in casual violence against women, both physically and emotionally.

It does not matter that not all men end up attacking women. We should not allow the conditions which normalise violence against women to fester.

Ahmose · 12/03/2021 21:53

It's gaslighting

partyatthepalace · 12/03/2021 21:56

Not all Men is the same as All Lives Matter

Wilsonwilson · 12/03/2021 21:59

Seems to me 99% of discussions about male violence are inevitably taken up by the not all men wharaboutery. Women seem to love this too as seen on mumsnet. It's tiresome, annoying and pointless.

The very fact of this shows that women have no spaces to discuss issues.

Kfdbhydcjrsx · 12/03/2021 22:01

I see RootyT00t has dropped by to ensure they are consistently delivering their "poor men" message.

The poor ickle murdering, raping, power-abusing men must be prioritised at all times.

Even when they're killing us, men are the real victims. Hmm

Kfdbhydcjrsx · 12/03/2021 22:03

@Wilsonwilson

Seems to me 99% of discussions about male violence are inevitably taken up by the not all men wharaboutery. Women seem to love this too as seen on mumsnet. It's tiresome, annoying and pointless.

The very fact of this shows that women have no spaces to discuss issues.

Yes. It's just another way to silence women.

Patriarchy's survival depends on the complicity of women.

Wilsonwilson · 12/03/2021 22:03

I dont know about anyone else but the "women do this too" "women are evil, look at this women who did this awful thing" makes me just feel uber anxious and awful in my gut. It makes me just give up even thinking about sharing my point of view.

Which I imagine is the point.

Tinkat · 12/03/2021 22:06

Sorry OP, but the problem with hating all men is that very many of us women, and most men, don't agree with you, so we just stop listening, walk away and leave you to your own self destructive arguments. Then you complain that nobody is listening. Go figure. Stop hating people who have done nothing wrong and then we can have a sensible discussion.

Deathgrip · 12/03/2021 22:07

Men can't win either.

The first fucking response. Brilliant.

It may not be all men, but we don’t know which men it is.

And when almost every woman has experienced this, it isn’t a small minority of men either

nocoolnamesleft · 12/03/2021 22:08

Too many men are.

LolaSmiles · 12/03/2021 22:08

The issue with much of the NAMALT stuff is that it's all about centring men when the discussion is male pattern violence and the effect of male pattern violence on women.

It reminds me of people who say 'but more men are murdered each year than women'. Yes they are, but they are also murdered by men. If someone wants to start a campaign against male pattern violence and investigate the trends surrounding male on male murder then they can. Except the won't because it only gets thrown up as a way of stopping women talking about female victims of male violence.

Wilsonwilson · 12/03/2021 22:08

The weight of misogyny is just too heavy. I feel feeble, or pissing in a gale trying to make myself understood.

Deathgrip · 12/03/2021 22:10

@Tinkat

Sorry OP, but the problem with hating all men is that very many of us women, and most men, don't agree with you, so we just stop listening, walk away and leave you to your own self destructive arguments. Then you complain that nobody is listening. Go figure. Stop hating people who have done nothing wrong and then we can have a sensible discussion.
Who said anything about hating men?

I don’t hate men. I do distrust most men to a point, because men I have trusted in the past - from friends to close family members - have abused me.

If distrust of men makes you angry, be angry with the men who cause it.

whataballbag · 12/03/2021 22:11

Of corse it's not all men. Only an idiot would think so.

The difference is, whilst I know that my built like a brick shithouse ex partner wouldn't hurt a fly, a woman who doesn't know him wouldn't.

Thankfully he actively tries to avoid making women feel uncomfortable, crosses the road instead of walking behind them etc

powershowerforanhour · 12/03/2021 22:11

He's really genuinely offended by women's fear.

If he had a huge big strong (like, big enough to cause death or life changing injury if it felt like it) but friendly dog and took it for a walk in the park off the lead, and a woman coming towards them looked anxiously at the dog and backed away, would he get all arsey that she was scared and bring the dog up close to her explaining how it wouldn't hurt a fly and- like the majority of dogs- had never bitten anyone? Or would he just think oh well maybe she has been bitten before, call the dog close to him or put it on the lead and give her a respectful wide berth so she can get past without having to go close to it?

Other dogs are at more risk of being bitten by dogs in the park than people are- but that doesn't make the fear some people have of dogs stupid or offensive.