The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

Women aren't abducting, raping, beating and murdering themselves.

Men and boys are raped and beaten too. The problem is sadistic men, and that is a small proportion of men, not all men. By using language that casts suspicion on all men some people are being discriminatory and offensive. It's pretty obvious that people will find that offensive and stop listening, so they're not doing themselves any favours.

This is directed mainly at the men who read, and sometimes post, on Mumsnet.

Because of the actions of some men, whether criminal or merely vile, it is completely normal that women who don’t know us as individuals, and sometimes also women who do know us, can be afraid of us. That is not necessarily a judgement being cast upon any of us as individuals. It is a learned behavior that almost always resulted from something that a man did: even if jerks are a minority, they tend to be prolific in their dickishness, so there are enough jerks out there that virtually every woman will have run afoul of at least one, and probably more.

Call it profiling, but it’s profiling that works: because the vast, vast majority of violent crimes and sexual aggressions are perpetrated by people who look like us, of course women (and men) will generally be warier of us than they are of women. Usually that will be correct.

So for those of us not already doing this: could we please just cross to the other side of the street, or slow down, or give a wider berth when passing on a path in the park, or give a bit more space in whatever other way makes sense in the moment? And could we also teach our sons to do the same, as a part of being a respectful and decent human being? And finally could we also please stop whinging about the minor discomfort that we might feel if we are perceived as a threat sometimes when we didn’t want that and haven’t individually done anything wrong? From reading these boards, not to even mention the news, bearing that small discomfort sure beats dealing with all the sh** that the women have to put up with on a regular basis!

So can’t we just man up, and carry this, in order to be part of the solution instead of making the problem even worse?

Only men can solve this problem, though, can't they?

No, it's a problem for the whole of society, men and women. They need to work together not throw rocks at everyone who has the same number of chromosomes as the offenders.

Men are raped and murdered and abducted too.

Honestly, some people dont know what to get offended by next. I have sons and daughters, and I teach both to be respectful.

Teaching your daughters to be safe isn't saying men aren't accountable for their actions, its simply a sensible precaution because no matter what, bad people WILL do bad things.

It's no different from telling your children to look left and right when crossing a road. Doesn't mean you will blame them if they get knocked over by a car!

And all this nonsense that the key is simply educating your sons to be decent - well yes, of course that's right, but I'm guessing that the majority of sex offenders come from dysfunctional families. This means that with all the will in the world, these types of parents will not be teaching their sons this.

@OurSurveySaid

Blessex
Of COURSE it’s not all men. But the reason we are so scared is because we don’t know which men. So all men now need to step up and help.
So all men now need to step up and help.

How? How are the men who are decent, respectful people going to be expected to change the attitude and behaviour of the ones who are not?

Exactly the same way that part of the BLM movement is about educating non-racist decent white people to help change the attitudes of those who are not, by being actively anti-racist rather than quietly non racist.

So in this case it means men calling out other men on aggressive behaviour towards women, educating themselves on what it’s like to be a woman, encouraging young men and the sons they raise to understand feminism, equality and consent.

Not all Men is the same All Lives Matter - of course it isn’t and of course they do - but as all white people have a responsibly to help end racism, all men have a responsibility to help end male aggression towards women.

@Tinkat

Only men can solve this problem, though, can't they?

No, it's a problem for the whole of society, men and women. They need to work together not throw rocks at everyone who has the same number of chromosomes as the offenders.

Exactly, it seems unfair on the section of the male population who don't act like morons to expect them alone to correct the behaviour of ones who do.

And another thing. If we are working on the reasoning of #AllMen because it's the majority of men that murder and rape, then why for example, are there suggestions of changing wording not to offend, such as 'pregnant person' instead of 'Pregnant women' when the majority of women having babies are not transgender?

Only men can solve this problem, though, can't they?

Decent men will generally be bringing up good sons already. Even apparently born psychopaths will generally be non-criminal if they have a loving upbringing.

What makes a man violent is probably deep-rooted in his childhood. A lack of a good male role model is apparently a major contributing factor. More male teachers would help?

Perhaps some of the more aggressive boys respond well to more discipline than they get today? I have noticed such a difference between boys’ personalities from toddlerhood, and a small few are very physical and aggressive from a young age despite me knowing the parents to be mild mannered. I am not a psychologist so feel free to disagree.

@weebarra

DH did point out that males are more at risk of violence. He is right. He's really genuinely offended by women's fear. This is a man who I've been with for over 20 years, who supposed me after rape, through breast cancer and three pregnancies. I wonder if it's so beyond his ken, he thinks other men are all like him.

From other men, and men target women because they are women. It's the most extreme form of the hatred of misogyny that permeates through society. We are sensitive to it because it's the most extreme form of the small things which happen to us every day, and it's exhausting. It's normal for me to have men making comments or shout at me when I go for a run, or use the bus. I've been driving down the motorway and had men matching my speed, overtaking me and tailgating me all while jeering from their car. Men don't hurt other men because they hate men, but they hurt women because they hate us.

🤦🏼‍♀️I hate wasps. I can say I hate wasps. I don’t hate ALL wasps. Just the wasps that want to sting me. But I don’t know who they are. So I hate wasps.

And who are the men feeling alienated because women wish to have a open discussion about violence perpetrated by men towards women and girls

Men that feel women and girls should always have to consider males that’s who (and sadly some women who will unfortunately play into their misogynist attitudes)

No man who has the awareness and who wants to support women and girls would feel alienated or concerned we are not talking about violence males suffer in this discussion as no one who reaywants racism to ends shuts down conversations by claiming they can’t see racism so there isn’t

I wonder why this pushback from women has come right now? Apart from the devastating abduction and murder of a young woman by a police officer?

Anything to do with rape convictions being at an all time low? Domestic murders at a high, but sentences at a low? Having to fight to get a law passed to abolish the 'rough sex gone wrong' defence in murder cases? Having to fight just to be recognised as women in law? Having to fight to keep words pertaining to being a woman? Having shockingly high numbers of sexual assaults and harassment done to us? Having to fight tiring and expensive legal battles to keep men out of women's spaces? Being excluded from govt covid payments for doing the work of bringing into this world new members of our society? Being harassed and threatened for fighting against FGM or talking about male violence? Being the only protected characteristic that is excluded from hate crime laws (Scotland)? Being banned from social media for talking about issues that affect us?
I wonder why we are so dissatisfied and angry, being only half the population, paying our taxes. Women of all colours make up half the population, yet this discrimination goes on and on, and is supposed to be accepted as normal.

@PrivateOrState

Only men can solve this problem, though, can't they?

Decent men will generally be bringing up good sons already. Even apparently born psychopaths will generally be non-criminal if they have a loving upbringing.

What makes a man violent is probably deep-rooted in his childhood. A lack of a good male role model is apparently a major contributing factor. More male teachers would help?

Perhaps some of the more aggressive boys respond well to more discipline than they get today? I have noticed such a difference between boys’ personalities from toddlerhood, and a small few are very physical and aggressive from a young age despite me knowing the parents to be mild mannered. I am not a psychologist so feel free to disagree.

The vast majority of extreme violent offenders have abuse in their childhoods. It's less about positive role models (often used as vilification of single mothers) and more that abuse and trauma happened at a time when their brains were developing which caused them to develop these personality disorders.

Today 23:36 Tinkat

jay55
Not all men is just another way of saying men's feelings matter more than women's lives.

No it's a way of not alienating a huge portion of the population, including many women who find misandrist language offensive

@tinkat

The BLM movement has been pretty hard for many white people who regard themselves as non racist to take, because it’s about accepting that being quietly non racist is not enough - only by being vocally anti-racist can white people help to combat racism.

The same thing is true here - decent men are going through the difficult process of realising that to be personally respectful of women is not enough - what’s needed is for everyone to challenge aggressive behaviour towards women.

Like people of colour, women have been quiet and patient for a long time and it hasn’t worked anywhere near well enough - so it is time to ask more of men.

@Crystalclair Men are raped and murdered and abducted too.

Sad my that’s true. Statistically, by other men.

@partyatthepalace

So in this case it means men calling out other men on aggressive behaviour towards women

Easy to say, far less easy to do.

Interfering in a situation where one party is being aggressive to another (regardless of the sex of the protagonists) puts one's own self at risk. If a man is aggressive to women I would suspect he is likely to be aggressive to men too, especially ones poking their nose into his "business".

Not every mosquito passes on malaria #NotAllMosquitos

Not every flea passes on bubonic plague #NotAllFleas

Not every tick causes Lyme disease #NotAllTicks

[quote OurSurveySaid]@partyatthepalace

So in this case it means men calling out other men on aggressive behaviour towards women

Easy to say, far less easy to do.

Interfering in a situation where one party is being aggressive to another (regardless of the sex of the protagonists) puts one's own self at risk. If a man is aggressive to women I would suspect he is likely to be aggressive to men too, especially ones poking their nose into his "business".[/quote]
So a man is walking down a road and sees another man clearly following a very terrified looking woman home and does nothing.. this is fine?

‘And all this nonsense that the key is simply educating your sons to be decent - well yes, of course that's right, but I'm guessing that the majority of sex offenders come from dysfunctional families. This means that with all the will in the world, these types of parents will not be teaching their sons this.’

@Crystalclair

If you seriously believe this you are more naive than I would have thought any adult woman (assuming you are a woman) could possibly be. No, all sex offenders do not come from dysfunctional backgrounds, most of them are perfectly ordinary young men, who have simply learned that their gratification is more important than a woman’s consent, or not learned what consent is, or how to control themselves.

The rest of your post is very confused. No one is suggesting that men cannot be abused. Not one is suggesting it’s not a good idea to teach girls to try and stay safe.

The point of this thread is to explore why ending the aggressive behaviour towards women in this society needs to involve both men and women. This is not because all men are aggressive towards women but because men who are respectful of women have a role to play in calling other men out for aggressive behaviour. Decent men can influence men who haven’t learned to behave well in a way that women cannot.

Like ending racism, it needs all of us.

So a man is walking down a road and sees another man clearly following a very terrified looking woman home and does nothing.. this is fine?

No, of course it isn't. But neither is demanding that a 5' 7" 9-stone man get directly involved in that kind of situation if the other man is 6' 4" and built like a rugby player.

@partyatthepalace I didnt say all!

I'm a woman btw. And my post makes perfect sense.

Fed up of people being offended by absolutely everything

Exactly, it seems unfair on the section of the male population who don't act like morons to expect them alone to correct the behaviour of ones who do.

Laughing at the idea that men alone will solve the problem of male violence against women. As if. And unfair on men who don't do it - when women are being raped and murdered by them? is that the big priority? What about the raped and murdered ones?

Women have been solving this problem for years by staying home, being careful, curtailing our lives the way men never do. It would be really nice if men actually acknowledged (as my dh does) the reality of male aggression and in particular male aggression and male sexual aggression toward women. Instead of saying "well I don't want to rape a woman so what am I supposed to do about it? That is so fucking lame.

Any decent man I know in his 50s (like dh) has realised what actually goes on and doesn't give a fuck about NAMALT.

@Wilsonwilson

Seems to me 99% of discussions about male violence are inevitably taken up by the not all men wharaboutery. Women seem to love this too as seen on mumsnet. It's tiresome, annoying and pointless.

The very fact of this shows that women have no spaces to discuss issues.

This post makes no sense...Your first paragraph contradicts your last. If women are on mumsnet making, in your view, tiresome, annoying and pointless statements, means that women ARE in a space where they are discussing male violence. They just don't all agree with you.

@pallisers

And unfair on men who don't do it - when women are being raped and murdered by them?

Women who are raped and murdered are, by definition, not being raped and murdered by the men who don't rape and murder women.

It would be really nice if men actually acknowledged (as my dh does) the reality of male aggression and in particular male aggression and male sexual aggression toward women. Instead of saying "well I don't want to rape a woman so what am I supposed to do about it? That is so fucking lame.

No man as far as I am aware is denying that male aggression towards women happens, the question was what the men who don't do it are supposed to do to prevent it?