The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

I think (nice) men do have to understand it in a similar way to how the BLM movement has helped me understand racism. It’s not an attack on me as an individual, more about understanding how privilege and society and history protects me from awful experiences that for other people is their day to day reality. I need to not take it personally but also if I’m not part of the solution....

@Alsohuman

He's really genuinely offended by women's fear

I’m offended that he thinks he’s got the right to be offended.

I’ve brought my son up to understand that women are rightly fearful on the streets after dark, in places where there few people around. If he sees a woman alone he crosses the road, drops back so she gets well ahead of him, basically behaves in ways to let her know she’s safe and he doesn’t pose a threat

All mothers of sons need to teach them this. We know our men aren’t like this; other women don’t.

All fathers of sons need to to this too. It's got to become part of being a man. Why should it just be down to mothers to do this? It's not up to women to solve the problem of male violence.

The MRAs have been quick off the bat and busy little bees today on MN today. I wonder if they put this much effort into actually being supportive and active in men's issues or only ever mention it to deny male violence aimed at women.

It’s clearly not the same as Black Lives Matter - Black people are more likely to die in a violent death or at hands of authority than white people.

Women are far, far less likely to be murdered than men. Men are more likely to be murdered by a stranger. I think about 70% of murder victims were men in 2018. Men are more likely to suffer violent assault too.
Men, young men in particular are vulnerable too.

That doesn’t make sexual harassment or violence against anyone acceptable. It’s true most sexual and violent crime is committed by men. We do need men to be educated to understand consent and to control their anger. They need to learn consequences at a young age instead of having everything negotiated. They need restorative justice in their everyday lives. They need to be taught to take responsibility.

That won’t stop the deviant murderous criminal mindset. It might reduce the lower level harassment.

Yanbu

People say NAMALT like its a bloody mic drop moment

Tbh it's also about people allowing discussions to be derailed. The slightest hint of dissention and people pile in and blah blah blah. The concept of ignoring the bullies/interlopers has been lost on the Internet and allows the flow to be misdirected.

I was infuriated by a Facebook conversation today that was very much along the NAMALT and men can be victims etc. It also contained the phrase 'Bad doesn't have a gender'.
Well if you take bad to mean criminal, I'm afraid it does. UK prison population 95% male/5% female.
I also found an article about people serving whole life sentences, so the worst of crimes. There were 73 prisoners serving whole life sentences when the list was written last year (at least one has died since - Yorkshire ripper).
Only 2 are women: Rosemary West and Joanne dennehy.

So what do we do about it practically?

Yes, nice men can cross the street at night when they realise that they are walking behind me, but that doesn’t stop the nasty man from violence. It doesn’t actually practically protect me.

I think (nice) men do have to understand it in a similar way to how the BLM movement has helped me understand racism. It’s not an attack on me as an individual, more about understanding how privilege and society and history protects me from awful experiences that for other people is their day to day reality. I need to not take it personally but also if I’m not part of the solution....

Absolutely this!
Thank you for understanding.

When I talk about how wrong it is for so many women to be abused, raped or murdered by men I’m not automatically blaming or thinking it is all men, just like when I say Black Lives Matter I don’t mean white lives don’t matter.

Women are far, far less likely to be murdered than men. Men are more likely to be murdered by a stranger. I think about 70% of murder victims were men in 2018. Men are more likely to suffer violent assault too.
Men, young men in particular are vulnerable too.

But it’s not women killing them. It’s men again. Like it is with children and animals.

Of course it's not all men, but it's enough men.
This is not about hating men, it's not about accusing men, this is about asking for their support. I really don't see how that's a difficult thing.

My dh crosses the road if hes going to pass a woman in the street-hes a very fast walker and it could freak them out

it doesnt seem to bother him but i still think its quite sad he has to do this

To pretend there is no nuance in this discussion is disingenuous.... yes, NAMALT is hard to take when you on receiving end but so is white oppression and privilege

No it isn’t. I am white, I have white privilege. I acknowledge it and would never in a million years stamp my feet and say it’s not fair to call white people racist because I’m not out committing hate crimes.

White people are racist, it’s social conditioning and it’s systemic. I do all I can to acknowledge and counteract any unconscious bias, and use my voice where it’s appropriate, and keep my mouth shut when it isn’t.

Those crying NAMALT are exactly the same people who deny white privilege.

it doesnt seem to bother him but i still think its quite sad he has to do this

Sad for whom? For him?

It’s not sad for him. It’s a tiny action he can take to make it clear he’s not a thread.

What’s sad is the lifetime of experiences of male violence and harassment that mean something as simple as having a man walking behind you can cause abject fear.

All fathers of sons need to to this too. It's got to become part of being a man. Why should it just be down to mothers to do this? It's not up to women to solve the problem of male violence

Totally agree but it was my job as a single parent. There wasn’t a man available to do it. And I honestly think your mum telling you what that fear feels like probably hits home harder.

Not all men is just another way of saying men's feelings matter more than women's lives.

It's wrong when police treat black men different to white I.e the are more likely to think a black group of men are up to no good that a white group of men. And rightly so, this type of stereotype/discrimination is being challenged daily.

So how is that different to the #AllMen?! Its doing just that. Discrimination based on simply being a man.

@Blessex

Of COURSE it’s not all men. But the reason we are so scared is because we don’t know which men. So all men now need to step up and help.

So all men now need to step up and help.

How? How are the men who are decent, respectful people going to be expected to change the attitude and behaviour of the ones who are not?

@Crystalclair

It's wrong when police treat black men different to white I.e the are more likely to think a black group of men are up to no good that a white group of men. And rightly so, this type of stereotype/discrimination is being challenged daily.

So how is that different to the #AllMen?! Its doing just that. Discrimination based on simply being a man.

Because not all crimes are committed by groups of black men so of course that's discrimination. They are being 'picked on' because of their profile. (As women are, by men, but that's ok?) But all rapes are committed by men. And a disgustingly high number of them get away with it. Men are also responsible for the vast majority of violence against and murder of women. Do you really not get it? Women aren't abducting, raping, beating and murdering themselves.

@jay55

Not all men is just another way of saying men's feelings matter more than women's lives.

No it's a way of not alienating a huge portion of the population, including many women who find misandrist language offensive.

It seems women are claiming the sole ‘victimhood’ on this issue of male violence, even though men are victims more often than women are.

Is it that you don’t believe the statistics on this?

Or do you assume that male victims are usually bad’uns themselves? (Quite possibly true, I don’t know)

Or because the male victims are ‘men’ like the perpetrator, they somehow have have a level of responsibility for the violence done against them?

The ‘male privilege’ of walking the streets unfearful at night would seem to be just a bad understanding of risks - really men should be just as cautious as women, as they are more likely to be attacked than a woman.

I am not trying to be provocative, I genuinely just am not following the logic, given the stats, although I understand the emotions behind it.

I'm not a Mirror reader; this was linked on Twitter (from a chilling clip of a DV trial where the abuser had forced his way back into the victims house to take part in the trial.. )

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dad-who-attacked-woman-walking-23694175.amp?twitterr_impression=true

@ImpossibleDecisions

It seems women are claiming the sole ‘victimhood’ on this issue of male violence, even though men are victims more often than women are.

Is it that you don’t believe the statistics on this?

Or do you assume that male victims are usually bad’uns themselves? (Quite possibly true, I don’t know)

Or because the male victims are ‘men’ like the perpetrator, they somehow have have a level of responsibility for the violence done against them?

The ‘male privilege’ of walking the streets unfearful at night would seem to be just a bad understanding of risks - really men should be just as cautious as women, as they are more likely to be attacked than a woman.

I am not trying to be provocative, I genuinely just am not following the logic, given the stats, although I understand the emotions behind it.

Only men can solve this problem, though, can't they? If men don't like the fact that they are a potential/genuine threat to both men and women (whether they choose to be violent or not) then they need to do something about it, surely? Why is it up to women to not make men feel uncomfortable about this? Why aren't men making other men feel uncomfortable about it, if it's that much of an issue for them?