The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

[quote Crystalclair]@party I find you more entertaining that you assume your 'smart wit' will make me somewhat crumble. The fact that's all you got proves to me you've not really got a sensible response to my very reasonable opinion.

You cant argue with stupid. So I'll disengage with you now. Hope you feel really empowered and clever now. I'm way too thick skinned to get offended:-)[/quote]
@Crystalclair

I am entertained rather than empowered by your opinions about so many unrelated things. Even if I knew what ‘somewhat crumble’ meant, I don’t think I’d want you to do it.

@OurSurveySaid

It is not Ok by the way for you to try and hold up your crumbling rationale by suggesting that you cannot generally tell the difference between teenage banter and a teenage girl being verbally abused on the street - there are a couple of posters on this thread alone talking about the endless abuse their daughters suffer walking home from school - a girl looking miserable with her head down is not engaged in banter

No, but, putting yourself in the position of a man, would you be more concerned about her looking miserable with her head down, which I gather is not abnormal for a teenager, or the potential ramifications of getting involved with a teenage girl when it might turn out that it was all harmless fun? How does one tell the difference?

@OurSurveySaid

Ok - you are being obtuse now - as a man you don’t need to get involved with the girl in this scenario, you need to call out the young men abusing her. If boys/men are yelling abuse at a girl and she is looking miserable - then for her it’s not harmless fun.

@partyatthepalace

If the problem were limited to really unpleasant characters, it would be much less of a problem. Plenty of perfectly ordinary men have behaved in an aggressive way with women at some point in our lives

You seemed to be implying that this is also perpetrated by otherwise pleasant characters outside the public gaze.

No @partyatthepalace, as a man I am not getting involved.

It is up to the boys' parents or their school to educate them about respect for women, not me.

@UnderperformingSeal

I am saying, not just implying, that a wide variety of men behave aggressively towards women at some point in their lives, in both public and private settings because it is socially acceptable to do so. Eg men yelling out of car windows at young women, men talking disparagingly about women on nights out and in the workplace, men taking advantage of women who’ve drunk too much to get sex. Many of these men are pretty ordinary and have otherwise pretty blameless lives - they behave like this because they’re taught it’s Ok.

It’s a pretty simple point that I am making. Happy to have a conversation with you, but I need you to express yourself more clearly to be able to do that.

@OurSurveySaid

No *@partyatthepalace*, as a man I am not getting involved.

It is up to the boys' parents or their school to educate them about respect for women, not me.

@OurSurveySaid

Then you are part of the problem. We have all been part of the problem, but we all have a responsibility to try and do better in future - to do what we can. It’s sad that you are choosing not to.

@partyatthepalace

they behave like this because they’re taught it’s Ok.

Well, I'd like you to show your working out here.

[quote UnderperformingSeal]@partyatthepalace

they behave like this because they’re taught it’s Ok.

Well, I'd like you to show your working out here.[/quote]
Be more specific - what do you want me to explain?

How is it that they are taught that it's OK? Who teaches it?

@partyatthepalace

Then you are part of the problem. We have all been part of the problem, but we all have a responsibility to try and do better in future - to do what we can. It’s sad that you are choosing not to.

I have no children, so save your sadness for someone else.

@Tinkat

Sorry OP, but the problem with hating all men is that very many of us women, and most men, don't agree with you, so we just stop listening, walk away and leave you to your own self destructive arguments. Then you complain that nobody is listening. Go figure. Stop hating people who have done nothing wrong and then we can have a sensible discussion.

I totally agree with this.

Whilst those who commit murder are statistically more likely to be men, in 2019, 429 men were murdered and 241 women in England and Wales (figures taken from .gov - 2020 figures not yet added). Of course murder isn't the only form of violence but it certainly suggests that men are as much at risk as women, and potentially more so.

@UnderperformingSeal

How is it that they are taught that it's OK? Who teaches it?

Ok, until relatively recently, women were formally viewed as the property of their male relatives and as being second class citizens. This began to change in the late Victorian period - the married women’s property act of 1870 is as a good a marker as any - it sounds like a long time ago, but in the context of civilisation, it isn’t.

A hangover from the many millennia in which women occupied a grub like status is that although women’s official position in society is much improved, women are still perceived as not having full autonomy over their bodies, the space they occupy, their sexuality, etc. These long held beliefs permeate our culture, so men - and women - grow up with the idea that it is Ok for men to behave aggressively towards women, because the needs of men are more important than the needs of women, and because a woman out and about exercising her freedom is fair game because she is not behaving as a respectable woman should.

This is why lots of perfectly ordinary men can at some point in their lives behave in a highly aggressive way towards women, in both public and private spaces.

Of course there is a much smaller group of men with much deeper issues. But the most effective way to tackle aggression towards women in society overall is to tackle the bigger issue of misogyny in mainstream society. The same applies to racism.

[quote OurSurveySaid]@partyatthepalace

Then you are part of the problem. We have all been part of the problem, but we all have a responsibility to try and do better in future - to do what we can. It’s sad that you are choosing not to.

I have no children, so save your sadness for someone else.[/quote]
@OurSurveySaid

Having children or not is irrelevant. You are part of society, it is sad you don’t want to play your part in making it better.

How is it that they are taught that it's OK? Who teaches it?

All the men who witness them behaving that way and don't step in to say, "you're out of order - saying/doing things like that isn't acceptable." All the men who think it's not their job, who feel they can choose not to be part of society if it might make them feel a bit uncomfortable.

@UnderperformingSeal

How is it that they are taught that it's OK? Who teaches it?

It starts are little kids when it’s just brushed off as “boys being boys”, boys are taught to repress their feelings and told to be a man/brave/it didn’t hurt that much which means you can’t cry when you fall and hurt yourselves. Boys are often are never taught how express their feelings with words in the same ways are girls are.

Or little boys are told “don’t be a such a girl” when upset because bring a girl is obviously a terrible thing to be and less than being a “man”

[quote OurSurveySaid]@partyatthepalace

Then you are part of the problem. We have all been part of the problem, but we all have a responsibility to try and do better in future - to do what we can. It’s sad that you are choosing not to.

I have no children, so save your sadness for someone else.[/quote]
And I’m not black/Muslim/Jew but I still call out racist behaviour when I see it

This was a few pages back, but I wanted to respond:

OurSurveySaid

Blessex
Of COURSE it’s not all men. But the reason we are so scared is because we don’t know which men. So all men now need to step up and help.
So all men now need to step up and help.

How? How are the men who are decent, respectful people going to be expected to change the attitude and behaviour of the ones who are not?

A man I had never met before slammed his trolley into the back of me while I was waiting in line. When I turned to face him he laughed at me and made some comment about me being too slow to get out of his way. And while he smirked at me I stood up for myself and asserted he had no right to hurt people like that. He responded by verbally threatening me. The man in front of me turned around and spoke in my defence and told him very firmly not to talk to women like that or threaten them. The strength of this man’s body language and tone of voice made this other man stop his abusive behaviour immediately. I thanked the man who acted to protect me.

This is one way men can help. The many, many other times I have seen women being threatened, assaulted, bullied, harassed by men, and onlookers saying and doing nothing to help her or back her up is somehow sending a message that it’s easy to get away with this bad/toxic behaviour. Of course a man might not feel safe standing up against another abusive man who is bigger or stronger and that is fair enough. Everyone has a right to be safe. However, in instances where it is safe to speak up, then people should speak up and help. Somehow we need to create a majority in favour of challenging male violence and standing up against it. Men can be part of that majority too (without the “it’s not all men” sentiment). Because no one is saying it’s all men

@Deathgrip has it, it's not all men but it is most men when you include sexist behaviour, micro aggressions and misogyny. It's not widely acknowledged and recognised because it's been normalised. We need to call it all out. Much of so called normal behaviour is not ok.

Four secondary school boys came towards me in the pavement yesterday four abreast taking up the whole width of the pavement and made no space for me to pass them. This is unacceptable aggressive behaviour. Men need to listen to what behaviours affect womens lives and change their behaviour. Most men think violence against women is nothing to do with them and most men are wrong.

Of course murder isn't the only form of violence but it certainly suggests that men are as much at risk as women, and potentially more so.

By other men... men are more at risk being attacked by other men and women are more at risk at being attacked by men so why are you trying to bypass that the perpetrators despite not being all men are usually men.

Perhaps men are murdered more than women because they don't follow the same precautions that women do. Maybe we should start teaching men how to keep themselves safe?

Mothers of girls teach them how to reduce the risk of male violence. From what I have read recently, I understand that mothers of black sons teach them how to behave around the police to try to avoid discrimination.

If men were expected to change their behaviour to avoid violence (and blamed if it doesn't work, like women often are) perhaps they would understand how women feel? And it might have the benefit of reducing murder rates as well!

Also, murder isn't the only violence women experience. Based on the 2018 ONS statistics (the most recent I could find) women were at least three times more likely to be a victim of sexual offences than men. Then there is domestic violence (often unreported), harassment, stalking...

The very fact that it's Not All Men makes the whole thing more difficult. If it were All Men then we could perhaps deal with it by heavily restricting their movements with curfews etc. The fact that it's Not all Men but just Some Men, some of whom are heavily disguised as Thoroughly Decent Men, means that for women to feel safe we need to be wary of All Men. And the Actual Decent Men should understand that.

[quote Snog]**@Deathgrip* has it, it's not all men but it is most men* when you include sexist behaviour, micro aggressions and misogyny. It's not widely acknowledged and recognised because it's been normalised. We need to call it all out. Much of so called normal behaviour is not ok.

Four secondary school boys came towards me in the pavement yesterday four abreast taking up the whole width of the pavement and made no space for me to pass them. This is unacceptable aggressive behaviour. Men need to listen to what behaviours affect womens lives and change their behaviour. Most men think violence against women is nothing to do with them and most men are wrong.[/quote]
Get a grip snog. You're a misandrist, which is just as bad as being a mysogynist, a homophobe or a racist. You won't be taken seriously by most people unless you modify your discriminatory language. The vast majority of men are perfectly fine. Some men are gits/psychopaths but don't tar them all with the same brush.

[quote Snog]**@Deathgrip* has it, it's not all men but it is most men* when you include sexist behaviour, micro aggressions and misogyny. It's not widely acknowledged and recognised because it's been normalised. We need to call it all out. Much of so called normal behaviour is not ok.

Four secondary school boys came towards me in the pavement yesterday four abreast taking up the whole width of the pavement and made no space for me to pass them. This is unacceptable aggressive behaviour. Men need to listen to what behaviours affect womens lives and change their behaviour. Most men think violence against women is nothing to do with them and most men are wrong.[/quote]
Great post. So true.

@TheRogueApostrophe

The very fact that it's Not All Men makes the whole thing more difficult. If it were All Men then we could perhaps deal with it by heavily restricting their movements with curfews etc. The fact that it's Not all Men but just Some Men, some of whom are heavily disguised as Thoroughly Decent Men, means that for women to feel safe we need to be wary of All Men. And the Actual Decent Men should understand that.

Yes, life's complicated isn't it? You can't solve the problem by locking all men up or giving them a curfew or 'educating' them because the vast majority of them are ordinary decent people, not psychopaths, and they deserve to be treated with as much respect as women.