Is there any woman who hasn’t experienced male harrassment

[Twintub]

I was thinking about this and was initially thinking things have massively improved since I was young in the 80’s. I experienced flashers, a teacher tried to kiss me in high school he was married baby on the way, a pub boss whose girlfriend worked with him tried to kiss and grope me and another middle aged boss in my late 20s that pulled my trousers down at a night away for work. There were many more. Now I’m in my 40s I thought I don’t get bothered much but then I remembered 2 other pre covid instances. One late night train a drunk guy tried to chat to friend she politely said she wasn't interested and he got Aggressive calling her a speccy lesbian. Another instance my friend and I in a pub and a middle aged drunk man obviously on a business trip chatted up my friend she wasn’t interested I very nicely said we are just having a chat he turned on me and called me an ugly bitch He wasn’t talk h to me and I wasn’t a patch on her etc etc his work mates dragged him away.

What amazes me is men behave like this bit raise daughters who in turn get treated like this.

Anyone can read the thread and see your own words for themselves.

They can see the implication of those words, which I have explained to you, which you are now trying to dodge.

I have never claimed you used my words that I used to summarise the logical conclusion of your position. Ok?

I’m out.

I haven't. I've had male attention and advances but not something that has ever bothered me or made me feel too uncomfortable. Most times I've kind of brushed it off or dealt with it firmly (eg a kick to the shins). I can't say I've ever felt intimidated or threatened.

I've experienced multiple cases of sexual violence and intimidation, like every woman I know.

If you haven't you're bloody lucky.

It's disgusting, the extent of it, and how nothing is done about it

No. And I have been assaulted and have daughters who have been. It’s really not okay and here we are as society fighting with some who are saying don’t blame all men, in otter words don’t complain. Don’t have a vigil for a woman who died because of kidnap and assault by a man.
“Don’t make a fuss”. Aren’t girls told that from very young, don’t make a fuss? That’s how we are raised and then at some point we get assaulted and some even get murdered.

@TatianaBis

Anyone can read the thread and see your own words for themselves.

They can see the implication of those words, which I have explained to you, which you are now trying to dodge.

I have never claimed you used my words that I used to summarise the logical conclusion of your position. Ok?

I’m out.

I am not "dodging" anything. I just won't accept my meaning being so vastly twisted by someone. I chose my wording carefully to reflect my meaning - which is that life experiences affect out perceptions of things. I include myself in that. I would never ever be so fucking insulting and offensive as to imply that someone who has been a victim of an assault has a "skewed" perception of life events or "misinterprets" risk. Everyone's interpretation is valid - everyone's. I simply commented on how the variation in these interpretations will to some degree at least be shaped by life experiences, that was my only point.

As I've said - I feel less comfortable around women than men. I'm not offended if someone says "is that in part because of your life experiences?". I'd just reply with yes, it is. That's not offensive, it's just a fact. If someone said "oh ffs you need to get over yourself, your perception of risk and women is so skewed..." then yes I'd be rightly fucking offended.

I know what language I used - I know what my meaning was. I've stated it multiple times.

I'm not going to repeatedly defend myself against someone hell bent on misinterpreting my meaning.

Harassment has been such a common part of my life, since I was around 12, that I actually found the statistic that 97% of women said they had been subject to male harassment surprising, because I wondered how 3% of women had managed to live their life without it!

I've had men shouting out sexual comments to me in the street as a young girl in school uniform, I've had men touching me as I walked down the bus, through a club, on an escalator (the guy in the escalator out his hand up my skirt and this was in public, lots of people about and I was old enough at this point to turn round and shout at him. Didn't report him though). I've had men follow me, once I remember in particular I was a teenager shopping on a Saturday. I had to go into a shop - he followed me - and ask a female member of staff to help me. There was a whole coordinated response where they went up to him to ask if he needed help to distract him while another one showed me how to exit the back. 30 years ago now and only now am I wondering why none of us thought to call the police. Well, I do know. I don't think anything would have been done, even though he was really intimidating and I was really scared. I've been sexually assaulted twice while on school residentials.

I'm not talking about some guy trying to chat me up. I'm talking about unsolicited and very inappropriate shouting out sexual comments in public, lots of times when I was underage, and always when I'm minding my own business. I'm taking about intimidating and threatening behaviour, following, stalking, groping, assaulting. Men getting really angry when I try to ignore them and getting even angrier when I try to fight them. I've spent most my life walking a tightrope to appease strange men in public (I don't appease men in my work/personal life) so they don't turn nasty on me and attack me.

A recent MN Guest Post on Forced Marriage in some communities was a genuine eye-opener as to how things are invisible to those who don't recognise:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_posts/4186416-Guest-Post-Mumsnet-was-the-first-safe-place-I-had-to-realise-my-own-agency-now-I-am-campaigning-to-end-forced-marriage

The PP who are naming discomfort but don't see that as a threat - that's an interesting phenomenon.

As PPs say, too often children are women are upbraided for a sense of boundaries and taught to be ashamed of maintaining them. I wonder if this might affect their ability to recognise and name harassment when they experience it. Or even make them want to join in with the oppression of others as a way of rejecting that sense of fear?

The first time I can recall experiencing a form of harassment also co-incided with my first experience of victim blaming. My friend and I were aged around 12 and walking her dog along a busy road. A van drove past and the men in the vehicle repeatedly beeped the horn and yelled out the window at us. My friend's response to this was had I not been wearing a cropped t-shirt it wouldn't have happened.
On nights out in my early 20s men would regularly grab my arse or put their hands up my skirt. My reaction would be to move away and tell my friends how sleazy a guy had been. It was rife. It never even crossed my mind to tell a bouncer what had happened and I should have done.
My first boss would regularly comment on how flat chested I was in front of my colleagues. I remember the feelings of humiliation.
Whilst working in an office a regular topic of conversation by some male colleagues would be whether I was wearing tights or stockings. At the time I laughed off as banter.
I've also had a man yell directly in my face when I had the temerity to ask him to put his litter in the bin. He said I had a big fucking mouth and how would I like it if he shut it for me. This was broad daylight in a town centre and my toddler was in a pushchair. We drew quite the crowd yet no one stepped in.
So yes I feel like I have experienced male harassment. Reading it all back makes me feel angry and even more so that in all of those incidents in public no one said a word.

First three messages in my FB message requests
There are (and I'm not exaggerating) thousands like this

Most times I've kind of brushed it off or dealt with it firmly (eg a kick to the shins). I can't say I've ever felt intimidated or threatened.

If it was something that warranted a kick to the shins then surely it was harrassment/assault. Not feeling intimidated or threatened isn't the point.

children are women are upbraided for a sense of boundaries and taught to be ashamed of maintaining them. I wonder if this might affect their ability to recognise and name harassment when they experience it. Or even make them want to join in with the oppression of others as a way of rejecting that sense of fear?
Of course it creates a situation where women are are softened up almost from birth to be easy targets for other men to dominate and possess for their own personal gain
It as if men work together and instinctively co-ordinate to dominate and subjugate women in Marriott small ways that fly under the radar...an invisible net that we all get caught in
they go to such great lengths to dominate and crush us but we are still standing and still making gains, men are terrified of women because they know we are much stronger than they are, that's why they have to crush us from birth, if they didn't they would stand no chance at all against us

Myriad not Marriott 🤦🏼‍♀️

@LucieStar

I understand you didn’t intend to be insulting, it’s just unfortunate that you hadn’t thought through what you said, and are now trying to deny the implications.

I'm in my late 50s.

As a teenager and way into my 20s, unwanted male attention was so common it was considered par for the course, as it were.

I have never had anything really damaging happen to me, thankfully, but I have had the usual gamut of my father's work colleagues coming into me when drunk, when I was a teenager; a neighbour giving me a lift to town who tried it on (I was15/16); being grabbed by the boobs on a train, in a compartment by a bloke as he got up to leave the compartment in my early 20s; that sort of thing.

My only issue is that we must be careful in not regarding this stuff as being the same as being raped. There are orders of magnitude!

But I think times have changed a bit. I recall mentioning the neighbour to my parents at the time, who shrugged it off. Years later, I mentioned it in passing again, and my dad was 'What? When did this happen?'- horrified! 🤷

@WhatAreWordsWorth

If you have ever been catcalled, wolf whistled at or been on the receiving end of unwanted sexual comments from somebody, you have been sexually harassed.

If you’ve had your boobs or bum touched or groped in school/a bar/nightclub, then you have been sexually assaulted.

I find it pretty much impossible to believe that there’s a single woman out there who hasn’t experienced any of these things.

I genuinely have not experienced any of these things. I had one experience abroad where a guy dragged me up the road and started to try to sexually assault/rape me but I got away. I'm 43 and that's the only bad experience I have. Maybe it's because I have lived in small towns, don't use public transport often but it doesn't happen. I run regularly past 2/3 building sites in shorts and top and have never once got any attention. I see plenty of women out running, some of them very pretty girls in little shorts and I have never heard anyone comment at them. My DD is 13, she hasn't experienced anything like this. I have never seen a man looking at her.

DD is 13, she hasn't experienced anything like this. I have never seen a man looking at her

I think maybe you don’t notice? When my DD was 12 l nearly walloped some guy for giving her the once over.

[quote TatianaBis]@LucieStar

I understand you didn’t intend to be insulting, it’s just unfortunate that you hadn’t thought through what you said, and are now trying to deny the implications.[/quote]

This has really opened something up in me. Years of fury at male entitiled behaviour.

I’m 57 now, don’t get any attention. It’s such a fucking relief. The years between 12 and 32 were just a male free for all.

I’m so angry about what l had to put up with.

@TatianaBis

Thank you for yet another incorrect analysis. I in fact fully thought through my views, in detail.

I don’t think my mother ever noticed.

She once told me off for snapping at a man in a queue who’d been starring at my tits and then whispered ‘I’d like to fuck you’ in my ear when I was 12. When turned to my mum I was ‘beautiful’ I told him to leave me alone. My mother said there was no need to be rude to him as he was being nice. Like hell he was.

My DD is 13, she hasn't experienced anything like this

How do you know? Does she go to school on her own, walk around anywhere with friends etc. If so, you really would not know.

Likewise 'the pretty girls in little shorts' I doubt you know about them.

I have DDs. I would never presume to just know what they might or might not have experienced and although at that age they might tell their friends, would they have told their parents... not necessarily

@HaNNaHC92

I'm 28 and have not experienced male harassment or even come close to. There's obviously a lot of women out there who have been, but I think the numbers are exaggerated and are still small compared to those who have not been.

You’ve never had someone wolf whistle at you when driving past?

Never had someone pinch your bum as you pass them in a nightclub?

Never had someone insult you when you turn down their advances?

Never had someone touch your leg when you are sat in a pub?

I count myself lucky that I haven’t experience sexual assault. But all of the above happened to me as a teenager/young adult on Saturday nights, as it did also to all of my friends. It was a given part of a night out sadly. Drunken blokes trying to feel us up on the dance floor. It has to stop. Women have to be better respected.

I get the point that you're making, @Roussette, and of course, we can never truly know, but I'm pretty confident my 15yo dd has never experienced anything like this yet. We have spoken quite openly about this kind of thing, and I think she would tell me. She knows about my own experiences of sexual assault and she has told me about stuff that has happened to her friends, but she says that she has not had these experiences herself - I believe her.

@LNSL

I haven't. I've had male attention and advances but not something that has ever bothered me or made me feel too uncomfortable. Most times I've kind of brushed it off or dealt with it firmly (eg a kick to the shins). I can't say I've ever felt intimidated or threatened.

@LNSL Interesting that you felt uncomfortable enough to administer a kick to the shins, but still don’t feel like you’ve been harassed? Do you think that those of us who have experienced the same, have never tried to defend ourselves or retaliate?

Fair enough.