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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Is there any woman who hasn’t experienced male harrassment

999 replies

Twintub · 12/03/2021 08:31

I was thinking about this and was initially thinking things have massively improved since I was young in the 80’s. I experienced flashers, a teacher tried to kiss me in high school he was married baby on the way, a pub boss whose girlfriend worked with him tried to kiss and grope me and another middle aged boss in my late 20s that pulled my trousers down at a night away for work. There were many more. Now I’m in my 40s I thought I don’t get bothered much but then I remembered 2 other pre covid instances. One late night train a drunk guy tried to chat to friend she politely said she wasn't interested and he got Aggressive calling her a speccy lesbian. Another instance my friend and I in a pub and a middle aged drunk man obviously on a business trip chatted up my friend she wasn’t interested I very nicely said we are just having a chat he turned on me and called me an ugly bitch He wasn’t talk h to me and I wasn’t a patch on her etc etc his work mates dragged him away.

What amazes me is men behave like this bit raise daughters who in turn get treated like this.

OP posts:
LucieStar · 14/03/2021 08:35

*There must be a generational element, although perhaps it's also a perception thing.

I've had bloke shout out of car windows at me driving on several occasions, wolf whistles etc, but its never been in a context that has made me fearful that I might be harmed.

My usual response has been to tell them to fuck off or flick a v sign and get on with my day.*

Perhaps partly generational but also hugely based on personal perception - a couple of posters who have said they don't view catcalling as harassment have said they are in their 50s - I'm mid 30s. So generation doesn't explain it all. I'm the same as you - the particular comments made to me haven't in any way made me feel threatened- at most a bit cringey. Had I felt threatened I'd have reacted entirely differently. I wish I'd been brave enough to react like you (although in my head I was thinking "knob"), however I just rolled my eyes and kept on running ... don't give them the satisfaction of a response was my thinking!

Labobo · 14/03/2021 08:47

I've had bloke shout out of car windows at me driving on several occasions, wolf whistles etc, but its never been in a context that has made me fearful that I might be harmed.

My usual response has been to tell them to fuck off or flick a v sign and get on with my day.

I flicked a V at a catcalling driver once (incidentally, as I was crossing Clapham Common.) He tried to run me over and when I legged it across the grass, he jumped out of his car and gave chase, screaming at me and my friend. We were several side streets away before he finally gave up on us.

Catcalling is very aggressive. It reminds us we are prey. It reminds us we are continuously being sexually noted, judged and categorised by strangers who have the physical power, should they choose, to rape and kill us. It is not a fucking compliment.

MsTSwift · 14/03/2021 09:09

Ever been to a wedding where the couple fondly relate how they met

“well I was walking down the high street and he leaned out of the car cat called and shouted “show us your tits”. The rest is history”

LucieStar · 14/03/2021 09:18

It is not a fucking compliment.

Has anyone on this thread said "I love it, it's such a compliment"?

What some of us have said is - we don't personally view it as harassment. I said I find it cringey and momentarily uncomfortable (that is, the things that have been personally said to me - and that for me personally the things shouted at me would not equate to harassment).

That is worlds apart from: "Yeah I love it; such a compliment, I'd totally marry the man who shouted "nice arse" at me from his car window" Hmm

Labobo · 14/03/2021 09:29

@LucieStar No. Did I say they had? I wasn't having a go at anyone on this thread, I was expressing frustration at men who think it is.

PTW1234 · 14/03/2021 09:34

2 exposures (once a child in school uniform, and one in my twenties at 8am buying a pint of milk)
1 rape
Domestic violence
Tens and tens of catcalling incidents, gropes, cars driving into pavements blocking my path

Zero convictions despite about 5 of these events being reported to the police

I do not walk anywhere alone, not even with with my son

LucieStar · 14/03/2021 09:36

[quote Labobo]@LucieStar No. Did I say they had? I wasn't having a go at anyone on this thread, I was expressing frustration at men who think it is.[/quote]
Fair enough.

Original poster
Twintub · 14/03/2021 09:39

Df

OP posts:
Merename · 14/03/2021 09:48

@Labobo

I've had bloke shout out of car windows at me driving on several occasions, wolf whistles etc, but its never been in a context that has made me fearful that I might be harmed.

My usual response has been to tell them to fuck off or flick a v sign and get on with my day.

I flicked a V at a catcalling driver once (incidentally, as I was crossing Clapham Common.) He tried to run me over and when I legged it across the grass, he jumped out of his car and gave chase, screaming at me and my friend. We were several side streets away before he finally gave up on us.

Catcalling is very aggressive. It reminds us we are prey. It reminds us we are continuously being sexually noted, judged and categorised by strangers who have the physical power, should they choose, to rape and kill us. It is not a fucking compliment.

I agree with your analysis and am so sorry that this happened to you, sounds terrifying. I have expert lot of catcalling, mostly of the ‘show us your toys’ variety and not so scary, but it certainly makes me feel harassed and preyed upon like you describe. I was walking with my child in her pram a few years ago and a man while driving towards me put his two fingers to the sides of his mouth and waggled his tongue suggestively. It was disgusting. I didn’t believe that he was about to come after me so there was no risk as such, but I felt so disturbed, that a man felt free to just go around disturbing my peace like that and when I had a baby with me. For me the message is ‘you are a piece of flesh that I will do what the fuck I like to’.

I think this is a helpful discussion around catcalling, if we can let it not get too bitey. I am interested in those who haven’t felt harassed by it (although I hear you are not endorsing it), do you think catcalling should be treated as harassment and condemned as such? Public health campaigning etc? Criminalisation?

Merename · 14/03/2021 09:49

Show us your tits not toys Confused

Original poster
Twintub · 14/03/2021 09:51

I think it should when you find out it starts with young girls in school uniforms. Men must have an amazing ability to compartmentalise when they all have female family.

OP posts:
LucieStar · 14/03/2021 09:51

I am interested in those who haven’t felt harassed by it (although I hear you are not endorsing it), do you think catcalling should be treated as harassment and condemned as such

Yes, absolutely, if the person on the receiving end feels harassed by it.

LucieStar · 14/03/2021 09:52

@LucieStar

I am interested in those who haven’t felt harassed by it (although I hear you are not endorsing it), do you think catcalling should be treated as harassment and condemned as such

Yes, absolutely, if the person on the receiving end feels harassed by it.

And absolutely definitely if the person on the receiving end is a child!

Original poster
Twintub · 14/03/2021 09:52

I had a great response once from a bunch of drunk lads who were trying to topple the neighbours car. Oi missus do you want to pump me’ eh no thanks not today.

OP posts:
PTW1234 · 14/03/2021 10:04

Catcalling is horrible and is very harmful, especially when the victim has also experienced more serious sexual harassment / assault.

I had an incident where a man came into my face and said “smile love you will look prettier” I was totally in the zone walking back to my workplace (late) so I was surprised and jumped, I was then called horrible names for my reaction, and grabbed by my shoulders.

BROAD DAYLIGHT in a city at lunch time.

TatianaBis · 14/03/2021 10:06

@NiceGerbil

Of course sexual harassment existed in the 80s!

Unfortunately you completely missed the point of my post.

LucieStar · 14/03/2021 10:12

*Catcalling is horrible and is very harmful, especially when the victim has also experienced more serious sexual harassment / assault.
*
I can only imagine it is. I wonder if that's where some of the difference in feelings towards it comes in too - if I'd been sexually assaulted in the past I imagine even something as seemingly tame as "nice arse" as I'm running past would feel very threatening. But perhaps (at least partly) because I haven't had these experiences, I view it as a minor irritation rather than a threat.

Merename · 14/03/2021 10:19

@LucieStar

*Catcalling is horrible and is very harmful, especially when the victim has also experienced more serious sexual harassment / assault. * I can only imagine it is. I wonder if that's where some of the difference in feelings towards it comes in too - if I'd been sexually assaulted in the past I imagine even something as seemingly tame as "nice arse" as I'm running past would feel very threatening. But perhaps (at least partly) because I haven't had these experiences, I view it as a minor irritation rather than a threat.
I understand the point, Lucie, and am sure it is more threatening when there have been previous experiences, but looking at your previous post you said you’d wish you’d be brave enough to shout back that they are a knob. If it’s just a minor irritation, why would you need to be brave? What do you think might happen if you shouted knob back?
PTW1234 · 14/03/2021 10:20

@LucieStar and many many women have experienced serious sexual assault (guardian has an article suggesting 85k women are raped each year)

I do often wonder too about the man who flashed me as a child, did he go on to commit other more violent offences? Flashing, driving onto payments trying to intimidate women, do men who do this stop one day..

TatianaBis · 14/03/2021 10:22

Catcalling is not all of a piece. So many different kinds, contexts etc.

Some catcalling is merely irritating and some can be threatening, entirely dependent on the situation.

Implying that those women who have been sexually assaulted may interpret it as more threatening than it is due to their experiences is tiresome. The problem is not within women but with male behaviour.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 14/03/2021 10:25

Age 12
Age 14
Age15
Age16
Age18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23.....

Grabbed, sneered at, jeered at, commented on, fondled, kissed, being forced to listen to my boss’s sexual exploits despite the fact he was married. It went on and on. Cried before work every day, men forcing their leg between mine, guy wanking on the stairs to my flat. We’ve ALL had it one way or another.

All unwanted attention. It needs to start in school. And for me, I’d be happy to see jeering, unwanted attention, etc to become criminal offences

How else do we stamp it out?

Neonlightning · 14/03/2021 10:26

When I was 18, a chant was realllly popular at my uni... "get your tits out for the boys, get your tits out for the boys".

This was in law school.

Original poster
Twintub · 14/03/2021 10:27

@Neonlightning yup classic song Hmm

OP posts:
LucieStar · 14/03/2021 10:37

I understand the point, Lucie, and am sure it is more threatening when there have been previous experiences, but looking at your previous post you said you’d wish you’d be brave enough to shout back that they are a knob. If it’s just a minor irritation, why would you need to be brave? What do you think might happen if you shouted knob back?

I think (having just reflected on this as I wasn't initially sure on the answer) it probably relates to a more general fear of social confrontation on my part (linked to a slight social anxiety I have), as opposed to fear of men, per se. So - for arguments sake - in a hypothetical verbal exchange about something non sexual with a woman in public, for examples, I'd have felt similarly anxious and probably retreated rather than shouted back. It relates to having attention drawn to myself in public, ultimately, regardless of gender. I intensely dislike it. Interestingly, in general, I actually feel more relaxed around men than women (for my own personal reasons, which I won't go into on here).

IcelandThree · 14/03/2021 10:42

Plenty - been flashed multiple times, and grabbed once and tried to be forced into bushes. Catcalling, being propositioned in street etc can't even count the occasions,