Is there any woman who hasn’t experienced male harrassment

[Twintub]

I was thinking about this and was initially thinking things have massively improved since I was young in the 80’s. I experienced flashers, a teacher tried to kiss me in high school he was married baby on the way, a pub boss whose girlfriend worked with him tried to kiss and grope me and another middle aged boss in my late 20s that pulled my trousers down at a night away for work. There were many more. Now I’m in my 40s I thought I don’t get bothered much but then I remembered 2 other pre covid instances. One late night train a drunk guy tried to chat to friend she politely said she wasn't interested and he got Aggressive calling her a speccy lesbian. Another instance my friend and I in a pub and a middle aged drunk man obviously on a business trip chatted up my friend she wasn’t interested I very nicely said we are just having a chat he turned on me and called me an ugly bitch He wasn’t talk h to me and I wasn’t a patch on her etc etc his work mates dragged him away.

What amazes me is men behave like this bit raise daughters who in turn get treated like this.

Implying that those women who have been sexually assaulted may interpret it as more threatening than it is due to their experiences is tiresome. The problem is not within women but with male behaviour.

Why is it tiresome? We all interpret life events through the lenses of our own experiences - that's a psychological fact.

I feel less comfortable for example around women than men - for my own reasons linked to my own personal experiences. That's not to say "the problem is me" - it's just to say I'm human and my perceptions have been shaped by my experiences, as is the case for all of us.

There's no judgement attached to that with regard to the person on the receiving end - and certainly no implication that that makes the person "to blame". It's merely a reflection on how and why we might come to interpret a catcall in some cases as mildly irritating, and in others as hugely threatening. Neither is "right or wrong" - they're just valid individual differences.

And yes - of course the men doing this are absolute knobs who need to address their own behaviour. Never questioned that.

A family friend in her 80s always told everyone that the numbers around abuse of women and children were overblown and a complete over-reaction.

Two years ago she was watching something on television. She realised something about her childhood that led her to ask a couple of her friends to talk to her about a sensitive topic. She realised that she'd been abused from a very young age and it probably had influenced many decisions in her life.

I can't even count the amount of times I have experienced male harassment ranging from catcalling and whistling, being followed, persistent unwanted advances, unsolicited groping, sexual assault and rape.

medium.com/illumination/consent-classes-kenyas-unique-approach-to-rape-prevention-3ab1b8d5289b

If they can do this in Kenya and Malawi we can do this here.

We all interpret life events through the lenses of our own experiences

No shit. However, implying sexual assault skews women‘s judgment of experiences in a different context is not only bollocks but damaging bollocks.

That’s not to say that a woman who has been raped for example would not be more sensitive to male behaviour generally.

But it is not true to say that all women are generally more likely to interpret catcalling as threatening due to prior sexual assault ime.

Whether a catcall is threatening depends far more on the objective details of the situation - the context, the intent behind it, the aggression level, the location (eg public or isolated place etc).

Yes, I agree entirely that context of what is being said is crucial, as I stated further up thread:

"I've had "nice arse" yelled at me from a car full of men whilst running, been beeped at, and whistled at. If someone had driven slowly alongside me and gone "get in the car", however, I'd fucking shit myself and be trying to get their reg to report them. Context is crucial."

IMO, context of what is said and a person's previous experiences will be relevant to how they feel when being catcalled. Both of these things.

It relates to having attention drawn to myself in public, ultimately, regardless of gender. I intensely dislike it

So you dislike attention drawn to you in public, but catcalling is fine.
You would not be brave enough to shout back, but that’s ok as you wouldn’t be brave enough to shout at a woman either.

I can tell you from experience of shouting back generally, that answering back men who have made sexual comments is far more likely to result in escalation and aggression and negative consequences than to women. See @Labobo’s experience above.

However, implying sexual assault skews women‘s judgment of experiences in a different context is not only bollocks but damaging bollocks.

I don't even know what this means tbh.
Where have I used the word "skews" - that word to me suggests a "right and wrong way" to view something, and if you've been sexually assaulted your view is "skewed" towards, what? Abnormal? I didn't use that word.

I said life experiences will affect how we interpret anything that is said to us. That's not "bollocks" I'm afraid. It's fact.

IMO, context of what is said and a person's previous experiences will be relevant to how they feel when being catcalled. Both of these things.

Previous experience is relevant but I don’t think it causes women to exaggerate or interpret the current threat incorrectly.

I don't even know where to start with the idea that being harassed or assaulted lessens a woman's credibility for judging harassment and assault.

So you dislike attention drawn to you in public, but catcalling is fine.
You would not be brave enough to shout back, but that’s ok as you wouldn’t be brave enough to shout at a woman either.*

Did I say "fine"?

No.

Again.

I said - "it makes me uncomfortable and I find it cringey, but it does not make me feel threatened or harassed". To me, they are different experiences and feelings.

When I am being shouted at in public, I have little choice in attention being drawn to myself, clearly! It's not me doing the shouting is it? But to me, shouting back just amplifies it and draws further attention. What's it likely to be met with? More comments by the men, probably. Where's that going to get me? Nowhere but further into an uncomfortable spotlight I don't want to be in. So why would I engage with it? What's the point?

No I also wouldn't shout back at a woman - for similar reasons.

@TatianaBis

IMO, context of what is said and a person's previous experiences will be relevant to how they feel when being catcalled. Both of these things.

Previous experience is relevant but I don’t think it causes women to exaggerate or interpret the current threat incorrectly.

Nope, neither do I.

That's why I haven't used the words "exaggerate" or "interpret incorrectly".

Instead you'll see me having repeatedly stated that any interpretation of catcalling that any person may have is entirely valid and ok. Read back - you'll see that.

I can tell you from experience of shouting back generally, that answering back men who have made sexual comments is far more likely to result in escalation and aggression and negative consequences than to women.

Exactly!! Which is why I wouldn't shout back, as I've just said. So we agree. So what's the argument???

I think it's more what the harassment is intended to do. Even if, IF, the shout is intended as a cackhsnded compliment or bizarre attempt at flirting, it's the way it unsettles you and puts you on the back foot. The power resides in the males.

Interesting teaching streetcar. At one point, Blanche flirts with a teenaged boy and assaults him with an unasked for kiss. 6th form find this creepy, but pathetic and humiliating for Blanche. As an older woman, she's being set up for our derision. They say they'd feel frightened if a man was doing it, because of what could happen.

@LucieStar

Where have I used the word "skews"

That was the implication of the following post:

if I'd been sexually assaulted in the past I imagine even something as seemingly tame as "nice arse" as I'm running past would feel very threatening.

You’re apparently saying that prior sexual assault could distort a women’s view of a comment as “tame” as “nice arse” into being “very threatening”.

[quote TatianaBis]@LucieStar

Where have I used the word "skews"

That was the implication of the following post:

if I'd been sexually assaulted in the past I imagine even something as seemingly tame as "nice arse" as I'm running past would feel very threatening.

You’re apparently saying that prior sexual assault could distort a women’s view of a comment as “tame” as “nice arse” into being “very threatening”.[/quote]

No, skewed and distort are your words. Don't put them in my mouth, please.

I said it would likely result in a different - but equally as valid - interpretation.

Exactly!! Which is why I wouldn't shout back, as I've just said. So we agree. So what's the argument???

So the reason you wouldn’t shout back at men who make sexual comments is from the potential consequences of their behaviour not from general social anxiety.

And I also used "I" in that post - as in, I imagine that if these things had happened to me, I would no longer interpret a comment such as that as a mild irritation, I would likely feel threatened. I'm expressing what I feel I would feel in that situation- I am not making a judgement about what anyone else should or shouldn't feel.

@TatianaBis

Exactly!! Which is why I wouldn't shout back, as I've just said. So we agree. So what's the argument???

So the reason you wouldn’t shout back at men who make sexual comments is from the potential consequences of their behaviour not from general social anxiety.

No. I'm not sure why you seem intent on skewing my posts.

I do not fear men. I would not fear the consequences of their behaviour above and beyond a woman's (in fact, as I have already stated and for my own personal reasons, I feel more comfortable around men than women in general). So no, you're wrong.

Yes I do have an element of social anxiety which means I hate public attention, from whoever and wherever. That would apply equally to a man or woman drawing attention to me in public. It's really not difficult to understand.

No, skewed and distort are your words. Don't put them in my mouth, please.

I don’t need to put words in your mouth, they have come out of their own accord. I am explaining to you the implication of your claim:

I'd been sexually assaulted in the past I imagine even something as seemingly tame as "nice arse" as I'm running past would feel very threatening.

Are you denying that you meant that prior assault could lead women to misinterpret threat level?

I've been very lucky in that the only harassment I've faced has generally been men walking down the street pestering me with questions. 'What's your name baby? Where do you work? Come on now talk to me. Etc'. Which happens all the time walking home from work

Horrible, but my mum, sister and best friend have all been attacked in the street. My friend three times as she's lived in London since she was a teen. Mum had to fight the man off as he took her to the ground. I know two rape victims.

Frighteningly common. I'm 25.

@TatianaBis

No, skewed and distort are your words. Don't put them in my mouth, please.

I don’t need to put words in your mouth, they have come out of their own accord. I am explaining to you the implication of your claim:

I'd been sexually assaulted in the past I imagine even something as seemingly tame as "nice arse" as I'm running past would feel very threatening.

Are you denying that you meant that prior assault could lead women to misinterpret threat level?

"Misinterpret" - there we go again with words I haven't said!

I'm disengaging from you now, your agenda is blatantly clear and I can't be arsed quite frankly.

I've stated my views enough times on this thread so that most people can see exactly what I mean. You carry on.

Not sure why PP thinks harassment is down to how GIRLS are raised? Like if a woman is raised as a 'Princess' then she lets herself get harassed or raped?? What??

don’t need to put words in your mouth, they have come out of their own accord.

What utter bollocks. Is the word here perhaps gaslighting???

I have absolutely not said those words. Unbelievable.

@LucieStar

don’t need to put words in your mouth, they have come out of their own accord.

What utter bollocks. Is the word here perhaps gaslighting???

I have absolutely not said those words. Unbelievable.

I literally just quoted your own words to you.

You’re just tying yourself up in knots now, avoiding the question and contradicting yourself.

@TatianaBis

You quoted my words and you found "skewed", "distorted", and misinterpreting threat"?

OK.

Well anyone on this thread who can read at a basic level can see that's bollocks, so as I said, crack on.

Have a nice day.