Is there any woman who hasn’t experienced male harrassment

[Twintub]

I was thinking about this and was initially thinking things have massively improved since I was young in the 80’s. I experienced flashers, a teacher tried to kiss me in high school he was married baby on the way, a pub boss whose girlfriend worked with him tried to kiss and grope me and another middle aged boss in my late 20s that pulled my trousers down at a night away for work. There were many more. Now I’m in my 40s I thought I don’t get bothered much but then I remembered 2 other pre covid instances. One late night train a drunk guy tried to chat to friend she politely said she wasn't interested and he got Aggressive calling her a speccy lesbian. Another instance my friend and I in a pub and a middle aged drunk man obviously on a business trip chatted up my friend she wasn’t interested I very nicely said we are just having a chat he turned on me and called me an ugly bitch He wasn’t talk h to me and I wasn’t a patch on her etc etc his work mates dragged him away.

What amazes me is men behave like this bit raise daughters who in turn get treated like this.

My DD similar age to poor Sarah...

Every morning she would walk a particular route to work. Very regularly a guy would walk alongside her trying to talk to her. She would completely ignore him, keep on walking and look straight ahead. Never even ecknowledged him. It didn't stop

Eventually, (she practised with me! ) she screamed at the top of her voice FUCK OFF. Everyone looked round.
He never did it again.

Yes, continuously from the age of 13. As a teenager (16 and under), these are simply some of the things I experienced: being sexually assaulted in my sleep by a male “friend” (reaching under my top and down my trousers...trying to put my hand down his trousers); the chef at my Saturday job waited until the kitchen was empty, grabbed me and pinned me against the wall trying to kiss me; accosted at a bus stop by a group of men in a car trying to get me to go with them.

It is absolutely dreadful what women experience and we seriously need to educate our children in order to reduce this; unfortunately, I don’t see an improvement happening any time soon, and the absolute proliferation of freely available porn will likely make it worse.

I don't think I have, or if I did I didn't realise it.
I was educated in single sex environments (even a female college at university) so that might have helped when younger. At uni I did maths but the guys were nice (& like Leonard Hofstader not Howard Wolowitz)
Then the industry I was in electronics/software was totally male dominated but they were overwhelmingly nice guys.
Outside of work I haven't really done pubs & clubs etc. I haven't used public transport loads either.

I think I have been lucky.
(I would still avoid walking alone at night though.)

@ThighsofSteel

I haven't, it's certainly not something that has caused me any anguish in my life, despite a long career in a very male domintated industry.

I've experience sexism e.g. the HR manager who wrote me off when I got engaged (in 1989) but not harassment. Even the sexism hasn't been extreme, on the whole I think I've had equal opportunity, with a few idiots to overcome.

It does make me wonder though if I've just missed it. Perhaps I didn't notice because it was so normal?

However, what I think made a massive difference to me was a wonderful father. He had two daughters and instead of regretting the lack of sons, treated us exactly like sons, we were taught to aim high and believe we could do anything at all. I think that entirely changed my demeanour at work and elsewhere, in how I expected to be treated and thereby influenced the way others treated me too.

Dad also supported mum being a FT working mother in the 1970s, so I had the role model too. He was a about the only one who did, her female relatives thought she was wicked and told her so often.

It's sad to have to admit it, but men are the solution to this problem.

What a horrible post. How could having a wonderful father make any difference? Are you saying all those women who experienced harrassment just weren't aiming high enough or failed to have a 'male' demeanour at work.

I’d love to hear this was true for the generation below mine but I suspect it’s not

I’m the generation below you and it’s not. We grew up with social media and an incredibly sexualised culture which imo led to this being more prevalent than for you.

I have experienced a whole load of unwanted male attention over the years.
From stalking to grim dick pics, to being groped in a night club and sexually assaulted by an ex.
It makes my skin crawl to think my DD may also have to put up with this.
When I have been out in the evening with DD20 it’s horrendous watching men lear at her and make comments...the same comments I heard at that age.

What makes some men feel this is ok? How would they feel if someone was saying/doing this to their sister/daughter.

What a horrible post. How could having a wonderful father make any difference? Are you saying all those women who experienced harrassment just weren't aiming high enough or failed to have a 'male' demeanour at work.

No, what I was actually saying is that too many fathers teach their daughters what their place should be.

My ex - still coparent said to me yest he read 97% of women have had some form of sexual harrassment. I said yes that doesnt surprise me. He was of course surprised.
In a busy club ive had someone walk past and shove their fingers up my skirt. I told my friend who was behind me she said he just did it to me too.
When i was late teen after a party i woke up with someone on top of me. I still dont know if i consented as i either woke up or just came round from my drunkeness at that point.

To the 28 year old i hope this is true and for my daughters sake attitudes are changing. Im not much older actually but i do see alot of differences already in the next generation

ThighsOfSteel

You are talking complete bollocks. It's almost like you are saying women are asking for it by giving out some sort of vibe that encourages it.
I give out a confident don't mess with me demeanour but it's happened to me so how do you explain that.

Perhaps I didn't notice because it was so normal?

Are you normalising it?

I even get harrassed while I'm out with DS. I was 22 when he was born and I used to get catcalled when I was out with the pram. Happens less now I'm getting older but it's even teenage boys doing it. I was with DS and a boy in the local comprehensive uniform told me I had a nice arse. I don't know where they find the nerve.

I was harassed pretty constantly from 11 to 50. Then it stopped.

The worst was waking up on a night flight from the US to find the man in the next seat had his hand between my legs.

And since I was asleep and covered from chin to toes in a blanket, I really can't have been giving anyone the come-on.

Is the point of the thread that there’s a difference between a one-off incident vs repeated which constitutes legal harassment?

Good point regarding social media so glad I’ve not received an unsolicited dick pic :-(

Here's an article about the levels of harassment of young women.
I'm 60 and tbh never have been, but I know I'm a lucky outlier.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/10/almost-all-young-women-in-the-uk-have-been-sexually-harassed-survey-finds

"It starts young, it doesn’t stop, and it is truly frightening how fast a man can switch from charming to vicious as soon as he realises you don’t want to get involved with him."

This. The mentality whereby men think women are their private property. This is the overriding theme I will take away from my life. I just hope I can educate my son, whose father thinks that women are just there for his personal glory and gratification.

@ThighsofSteel

What a horrible post. How could having a wonderful father make any difference? Are you saying all those women who experienced harrassment just weren't aiming high enough or failed to have a 'male' demeanour at work.

No, what I was actually saying is that too many fathers teach their daughters what their place should be.

So you're saying that women are harassed because they don't defy sexist expectations?

In a busy club ive had someone walk past and shove their fingers up my skirt

I had that happen to me at a party. It was the host. I knew him. I was shocked. It was a long time ago but you don't forget these incidents.

I’m 38 now and the harassment started when I was about 12 possibly younger, with cat calls from men in cars. I was touched up by a boy in my class in school, I’ve had my backside pinched numerous times. Still get cat called when out running. It’s something that all women are constantly aware of.

I was physically (not sexually) and emotionally abused by my drug addicted step-dad growing up.
I then entered an abusive relationship in my late teens with a drug addict. He was a total nightmare even after I ended things so when people throw the whole victim blaming ‘why didn’t you just leave’ thing out there, they still often don’t leave you alone. He stalked me for months and eventually assaulted me in broad daylight. Nobody tried to help me, he was 6 foot 2 and built like a brick shithouse so I had no chance. The police were pretty useless as well, I showed them the evidence of his behaviour over the months but they couldn’t charge him with anything...

I’ve also experienced lots of men wolf whistling, beeping their horns and shouting things from their car at me.

Tbh, even when I think back to losing my virginity at 15, he was 18 and majorly taking advantage. We both ended up moving to the same small town for whatever reason so I see him occasionally and he makes my skin crawl.

@Roussette

ThighsOfSteel

You are talking complete bollocks. It's almost like you are saying women are asking for it by giving out some sort of vibe that encourages it.
I give out a confident don't mess with me demeanour but it's happened to me so how do you explain that.

Perhaps I didn't notice because it was so normal?

Are you normalising it?

Ok, nice way to speak to a woman who's trying to contribute to an important debate.

I think fathers are important in all this, is my simple point. It's not helpful for women to be brought up expecting to be princesses.

I doubt there is any adult woman who hasn’t experienced this stuff. It’s everywhere.

That said, the perpetrators are a minority of men. Yet they are so prolific. Any one of these creeps will be treating women like this pretty constantly. One creep will likely have hundreds of victims. However, most men do not behave like this, and many are also victims of it.

My husband had a young female colleague come up to him and start trying to undo his trousers at a work do, in full view of a male friend, absolutely blatant. I think when women do this, it’s less threatening to the male victim (my Dh is a foot taller than this woman and probably twice her weight).
My brother is a teacher and upon telling an unruly 12 year off for throwing a drink over another student, the 12 year old retorted that she would be telling everyone that my brother was a paedo if he sanctioned her. Fortunately another teacher overheard this threat. But his career could have been trashed by this otherwise.

It all needs tackling IMO and to speak about men in their entirety negatively is not helpful IMO. I am not a man but I was, I would feel pretty annoyed to be lumped in with predatory men as one “problem”.

If you have ever been catcalled, wolf whistled at or been on the receiving end of unwanted sexual comments from somebody, you have been sexually harassed.

If you’ve had your boobs or bum touched or groped in school/a bar/nightclub, then you have been sexually assaulted.

I find it pretty much impossible to believe that there’s a single woman out there who hasn’t experienced any of these things.

@cerseii

Is the point of the thread that there’s a difference between a one-off incident vs repeated which constitutes legal harassment?

No I don't think so.

The point is to see whether any women haven't had incidents.

I have, though nowhere near as bad as some of the pp's.

Mainly inappropriate comments/emails at work where this was very much the norm with the sales team (and they were all, except one, male) 'flirting' (read: you are expected to enjoy this even though it's wholly inappropriate) with the female buyers to get their stock in. Thankfully I'm no longer there but as an example one guy told me he liked the top I was wearing as when I bent over he could see right down it 🤨.

And then on the tube, where on one packed train (hard for me to move away) some guy kept grabbing my hand as I held the rail. Looking back now I really wish I'd challenged him, even if just to ask in a loud voice why he kept doing it.

I'm sure there are other occasions, when walking down the street etc but none which spring to mind.

I wonder if some if those who think they haven't just wouldn't count what I've been through as harassment and might have enjoyed the attention from the sales team instead? Or forgotten the second instance had happened. That said, it's not something I've ever really discussed with my friends, so if you asked me I'd say I didn't think they'd been harassed and therefore I'm in the minority, but then they don't know about any of the above so would say I haven't been.

I have and I dont know any other females who havent. My story is depressingly common, going by this thread, a guy tried to chat me up on a train. I explained I wasnt interested and he immediately turned verbally abusive. It was horrendous, I was stuck on a packed commuter train whilst he loudly shouted about how ugly I was, he filmed the abuse on his phone. Not one person attempted to stop him and several men (and even more depressingly a few women) even laughed along with him.

Was utterly horrendous and I felt so vulnerable on public transport for months after.