Too Many Men

[JackieBeaver]

I'm feeling very sad about the Sarah Everard case. Poor poor woman. There's a lot of stories coming out now from women who have experienced feeling unsafe due to the behaviour of men with the hashtag toomanymen trending on Twitter and Green Party peer baroness Jones calling for a 6pm curfew of all men.

We need a change! This can't go on, I'm so tired of feeling unsafe and unable to go about my business without fearing for my safety. I'm worried for my dd also

Enough is enough

@CaveMum It's funny how so many men claim that they would never be friends with another man who would harass a woman and yet 97% of 18-24 year old women (and 80% of women of ALL AGES) have reported being sexually harassed/assaulted. So either women are lying, or there are a small handful of really prolific misogynists OR most men just turn a blind eye, they don't consider groping a woman's bum at the bar or shouting "cheer up love" at a woman walking alone down the street harassment.

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It would be really useful if you can find a link to these stats? I'm gonna take a look myself now just wondering if you had something to hand

@ghostyslovesheets - You know what statistically lies ahead of them at the hands of men?
Does this also mean their father is a threat to them?

Nanuet
It's very, very far from all, so please don't bunch the good ones out there with the scum

Nope, it’s not “very, very far from all”. Almost all women in this country have been sexually harassed, that means a fuck load of men are behaving in that way. Sick of this insistence that most men are angels that would never be inappropriate towards a woman, its just another way of shutting women up and denying their experiences

Actually, I forgot this was mumsnet. I shall lock up my son immediately and bury the husband under the patio before they go out killing women. There is clearly no hope for either of them

Nice, so you mock almost all women being sexually harassed and instead think “poor menz” instead?! Women really don’t matter do they? Almost all women in this country being sexually harassed, doesn’t matter as much as men’s feelings. Revolting.

@ghostyslovesheets - You know what statistically lies ahead of them at the hands of men?
Does this also mean their father is a threat to them?

My father abused me, so yes, some fathers are a threat to their children and partners.

Another bloke here.

When I'm out and about (doesn't matter whether it's day or night) I'm always conscious of women in my vicinity. By this I mean that if I'm walking somewhere behind a woman/girl I will either cross over or slow right down to give them space. I don' like trying to rush past in case that frightens them.

And I agree that this is so, so wrong. It's so wrong that I think I may worry or frighten a woman just by being near or behind her. And that is NOT how things should be. Women should be able to walk anywhere at any time without having to be on alert all the time.

As a father of two girls I don't go with the sexist attitudes either. Just before lockdown I was on a works evening out where we were being hosted by a supplier. After a few beers it was suggested that a strip club be visited. I refused to go and the host was concerned it wouldn't look good if he didn't go either. I said it would look bad to me if he did go and that surely morals counted more than sales? We two went for a curry. The other went but I made it clear the next day I wasn't impressed.

Unfortunately, I don't know what the solution is. The type of male who will assault/cat call and generally offend or insult a woman or girl just because they are female would probably ignore any curfew even if it was used.

@Meredithgrey1

I think it’s clear she is not actually suggesting a curfew be implemented. Just making a point about how the focus shouldn’t be on what the victim did or didn’t do (and by extension what women should and shouldn’t do), but on the perpetrator and how it shouldn’t be women who have to change their behaviour.

I agree, clearly a curfew for either sex is unworkable, but it raises the important issue for discussion of how the streets could be made safer for women , and a good part of that discussion is how women are made to feel unsafe because of men’s individual and collective behaviour. Other issues also exist of better lighting, better public transport, better street design (no underpasses etc) , it is not an easy problem to solve, but it is one which has been ignored for far too long, mainly because women have by and large taken the initiative by curtailing their activities to keep themselves safe. We shouldn’t have to do that.

I've been assaulted, flashed at, stalked, catcalled, harassed in my teens, twenties and beyond. One of the men was sent to prison. I was around certain individuals (men and women) who took the view if you were out by yourself in the evening or somewhere secluded you were taking a risk. A couple of them believed the woman deserved it.

I tried running around my local area with a female friend - she thought i was being daft for feeling wary. We were followed by a man in a bmw with blacked out windows. We got leered at by a fella and tooted at by various motorists...this was a 30min run at 10.30am...Fucking ridiculous.

The day someone gives us an accurate and instant method of identifying the "bad "men from the "good "ones , is the day I'll listen to and take up NAMALT.

Until then it's pointless drivel designed to shut up women and shame them into "be kind".

No, an endorsement from their mum is not enough.

@Naunet - That doesn’t mean all fathers are abusers though.

I would love to see men actually do this as a statement. A voluntary curfew on a single occasion, planned in advance to show solidarity with women. I can’t see it actually being workable, but it could be incredibly powerful if it was...

Curfew, that is, sorry I missed that bit out!

@AdditionalCharacter

I'm raising three sons (no daughters). I'd like to think I'm doing a good enough job in teaching them how to treat a woman correctly and not make her fear for her life at the mere sight of them.

No matter how well they behave it won't stop women fearing them as they'll be lumped in with the 'all men' category.

Its something we've spoken about at home as my OH won't stop to help a woman/women in difficulty. His view being they should have a phone and called for help or wait for another woman to assist, better that than they be approached by a strange man.

@ginandbearit

Id like to see Cressida Dick re assess the operational priorities of her police force so they dont send six officers to interview someone over a tweet or chase two women for walking and talking at the same time ..( I exaggerate but not by much )..use the resources to hand to provide a visible presence .

Actually I would prefer a society where people took responsibility for their own behaviour and men chose not to abuse, harass and frighten women because they knew it was wrong, not because they were worried they might be arrested for it, and that women felt safe to walk down any street not just those that had a police officer walking down it at the same time.

Of course it needs to change, women have been demanding change for decades - anyone else remember the Reclaim the Night marches in the 70s? The world’s a much safer place now with CCTV everywhere but sadly there will always be men who prey on women - no idea what can be done about them, though.

@Naunet - That doesn’t mean all fathers are abusers though

No shit, it also doesn’t mean people shouldn’t worry about their daughters.

@Pulledamonica

A curfew is a ridiculous suggestion. The issue is rooted in misogyny and education is the answer.

I love this. Instead of telling women not to go out in the evening.

I don’t think for a second the curfew was a serious suggestion. It highlights the absurdity of people saying that women should keep themselves safe by staying at home or not walking alone after dark rather than you know, taking the stance that women shouldn’t be a target for merely walking down a busy street at night. It’s totally depressing how little has changed in 40 years since ‘reclaim the night’ in the wake of the Yorkshire Ripper murders, where women were once again told to stay at home to stay safe

@WellIWasInTheNeighbourhoo

Men have effectively imposed a curfew on women so why cant one be imposed back. Its mens collective behaviour that has created this issue, not womens, why should we suffer. Perhaps if there were actual consequences for their behaviour change might occur. Education and the opportunity to do better has all failed, its not going to suddenly work now.

I'm always incensed when there's a spate of attacks on women in a particular area and the police start advising women not to go out alone at night. I mean, how fucking dare they? Why the fuck should women have to stay in because men are brutal arseholes? Talk about victim blaming.

But then I realise how utterly impractical it would be to have a curfew. How would men get home if they were shift workers on a late finish, or their trains were badly delayed (at least a weekly occurrence on our line)?

I'm not convinced it would make a difference anyway. Didn't the Cambridge rapist disguise himself as a woman, so he could rape women at night without being challenged? I was sexually assaulted on a bus at 4 in the afternoon, so broad daylight. The Chillenden murders, Billie-Jo Jenkins, Millie Dowler - I think they all happened during the day.

Men just need to stop doing it. Harsher sentences would be a good start.

@Naunet

Nanuet It's very, very far from all, so please don't bunch the good ones out there with the scum

Nope, it’s not “very, very far from all”. Almost all women in this country have been sexually harassed, that means a fuck load of men are behaving in that way. Sick of this insistence that most men are angels that would never be inappropriate towards a woman, its just another way of shutting women up and denying their experiences

Actually, I forgot this was mumsnet. I shall lock up my son immediately and bury the husband under the patio before they go out killing women. There is clearly no hope for either of them

Nice, so you mock almost all women being sexually harassed and instead think “poor menz” instead?! Women really don’t matter do they? Almost all women in this country being sexually harassed, doesn’t matter as much as men’s feelings. Revolting.

No, I'm not mocking women. I have been beaten senseless by an ex and almost died one night, I have been groped and I have other things done to me that I don't want to mention but I won't accept people saying that all men are the same. I can raise my son to be like his father, the most calm and kind person (not man) I have ever known. Unless my son turns out to be ill or evil in a way that we couldn't help or prevent, I trust that he will grow up to be the way that I and his father want him to be; respectful of everyone, regardless of sex.

[quote zigzog44]@ghostyslovesheets - You know what statistically lies ahead of them at the hands of men?
Does this also mean their father is a threat to them?[/quote]
they will date, they will go out alone, they will go to uni, to parties, have male co workers and male bosses maybe get married - they are massively at risk from men - that's a statistical fact - see the post above!

@BigFatLiar one of my sons is 6'6 and built like a rugby player. We have had the conversation about him looking intimidating when out just by the way he looks. Think it'll be a good follow on about walking on the other side of the road or not too close/speeding past.

I've been sexually assaulted, groped, had disgusting comments said to. I worked in a hotel aged 16 and had a guest shut me in his room for a few scary minutes before letting me out. Nothing was done to him, I was simply made to work in a different part of the hotel and made to feel like I was making a fuss over nothing. I do not want my sons to think any behaviour like that is acceptable.

Thank you to the men on this thread who are challenging behaviour.

It would be really great if more men could move on from NAMALT to Not In My Name. Men need to let other men know that you do not want maleness to be associated with harassment, misogynistic banter, violent porn, sexual assault etc. Some of the men who engage in these behaviours try to hide behind a veneer of that is just what blokes do - other men can take that excuse from them. If you fall into the group covered by NAMALT then start calling out those men who are like that.

@Letsallscreamatthesistene

Green Party peer baroness Jones calling for a 6pm curfew of all men.

I have never read anything more silly. The stupidity of this just makes the whole arguement seem ridiculous

The curfew on men was a response to the police suggesting that women shouldn't go out at night. There was a curfew on women during the time of teh Yorkshire Ripper. Why? Why should women stay home. They are not the ones out raping people. It is of course offensive and ridiculous suggest all men stay home. It implicitly suggests they are all capable of attacking. But a curfew on all women is even more offensive, since they are not threatening, alarming or harming others by being out on the street. I've been chased across Clapham Common by an absolute freak and was stalked while out running on Wandsworth Common. Both terrifying experiences where I thought my life was over. It is deeply misogynistic of the police to suggest a curfew on women.

• No, I'm not mocking women. I have been beaten senseless by an ex and almost died one night, I have been groped and I have other things done to me that I don't want to mention but I won't accept people saying that all men are the same. I can raise my son to be like his father, the most calm and kind person (not man) I have ever known. Unless my son turns out to be ill or evil in a way that we couldn't help or prevent, I trust that he will grow up to be the way that I and his father want him to be; respectful of everyone, regardless of sex*

Great, so then why get so defensive on behalf of men when women are talking about their experiences and saying that something needs to change? We all know it’s not all men, we hear it constantly, but it’s still far, far too many.

Unless my son turns out to be ill or evil in a way that we couldn't help or prevent, I trust that he will grow up to be the way that I and his father want him to be; respectful of everyone, regardless of sex.

In the kindest way (coming from a mother of a son), you have absolutely no idea he will grow up like that as influence does not come purely from family. A sly little rape joke, or a comment on a women's looks, maybe even the odd little grope are still painfully common and you can't police that as your son gets older. It doesn't mean he's 'ill' or 'evil', but just being 'one of the lads'.

It is the job of EVERY MAN to prevent rape, attacks and harassment on women. EVERY SINGLE ONE. The culture towards women needs to change and if every man doesn't play their part, it simply won't. Even if they don't actively do anything to women, by being a bystander they are allowing it to happen.

Playing the NAMALT card just minimises it being a male problem and keeps the responsibility of dealing with it at the victims feet.