Where would the money come from to give all NHS staff a 12.5% pay rise?

[katieloves]

I cannot begin to think where cuts would be made to fund this when the economy already is in the state it’s in. How would you fund it?

For all the 'tax Amazon, tax the rich, no tax avoidance, Simples' people I suggest you call up HMRC and tell them you can write a tax code that taxes Amazon differently, taking into account OECD rules etc. For anyone who actually knows anything about tax they will know there is considerably less tax evasion and avoidance than there has been in years and substantially more tax governance. In the last 12 years the conservative led governments have passed more anti avoidance legislation than in the previous 50 years. There is a tax to catch companies like Amazon that try to move profits from UK business offshore, it's called diverted profits tax. Also some people need to learn the difference between revenue and profit!! Tax is paid on profit not revenue.
Having said all that of course a pay rise of over 1% could be done but 12.5% is never going to happen (I'm sure they know that and it is a negotiating tactic).

@StiggyZardust

From the HS2 budget?

This.

HS2 is the biggest shambolic money pit ever.

Scrap Trident

@MrsTerryPratchett

And governments should work together to do it so they can't hide in tax havens.

Sick and tired of 'there are no resources' when there fucking are. Empty luxury homes and people on the streets.

Fuck them.

Like Marcus Rashford. All that tax he avoided paying could have bought a lot of school meals

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@VinylDetective - why do you think they don’t? What evidence do you have that they don’t pay what they are due to pay? Why would HMRC not enforce tax laws on Amazon? What qualifications or understanding do you have about the matter?[/quote]
Ah the naïveté is touching. More understanding than you clearly.

@adeleh

Close the tax avoidance loopholes.

Shake the magic money tree that rained £37 billion into Dido Harding’s lap.

What tax avoidance loopholes, how do you close them? If you know better than everyone at the OECD, HMRC and treasury and have better solutions give them a call I'm sure they'd love to hear from you. There is very limited ways to avoid tax in the UK and the level of tax avoidance would be a drop in the ocean. HMRC estimated tax gap (which is widely thought to be exaggerated) that estimates the amount lost to tax avoidance as £31bn in 2018/19. The UK pays more than that per annum to service our debt never mind anything else so it would be a drop in the ocean!

@VinylDetective
So tell us all then? How are they avoiding tax, what tax law would you bring is so they can't?
I think the fact you haven't got a clue is very obvious.

@MeadowHay

Where was the money for furlough? For the benefits uplifts? For FSM throughout school holidays? For all the rates reliefs and so on that the government have put in through covid? Nobody was questioning where the money for that came from, but suddenly when it comes to NHS pay the money has suddenly ran out just before it comes to that? Odd.

Really?? You weren't watching the News thinking, well fuck me, we have to keep the economy moving, but shit, how the fuck is this going to be paid for?...

The 350m a week we can put in after brexit.

Gosh the lack of economic education on this thread is upsetting. I would recommend various books like The Production of Money, and The Establishment. It's bizarre how people are totally fine to accept that there is somehow government money for absolutely everything except investment in public services. It is also incredibly naive that people believe that low taxation of huge corporations etc is an inevitability rather than just political will.

Nobody was questioning where the money for that came from

Where have you been? Every other post I see on here or Twitter asks this question with monotonous regularity.

But these are short term costs. A 12.5% pay rise will cost us year on year.

The NHS have definitely earned a decent pay increase, and we have much to thank them for. It is however insane to expect a 12% increase. Look at what the market as a whole is doing salary wise (not just the state sector in the UK - but employers across all sectors worldwide virtually): they are freezing pay left right and center. God, most did it last year too.. NHS employees also continue to enjoy a generous final salary pension when almost every defined benefit pension has been shut for years. If you look at pay history, again NHS trumps what your average joe could ever have hoped for. Those in the private sector have also lost their jobs in huge numbers. It's also not reasonable to look just at salary, you've got to consider the whole package.. most people can only dream of having the kind of pension they get as a part of their total package - or the generous pay increases for years compared to what others get (1-2% if they are lucky in a good year!). The NHS aren't the only people who worked their balls off in this pandemic putting themselves at HUGE risk. Many have like police, care workers, those supporting critical infrastructure etc.

My Mum was a nurse in the NHS before she retired and was distraught to hear nurses were threatening to strike. In her words: I would never have threatened to walk off the ward and left my patients in such a way.

For those arguing big companies aren't paying the taxes they should & that would fix everything... the fact is they are following the tax laws. If they are found not to be paying what is due HMRC do enforce . It's incredibly disingenuous to believe they don't or to insinuate they are 'evading' taxes. It's also easy to blame the government, the world has changed and most countries tax legislation isn't fit for the current landscape (i.e. it's not fair). Efforts have been underway via the OECD to change that, with initiatives such as BEPS but it will take time to really see / feel a difference.

@MintyMabel

Nobody was questioning where the money for that came from

Where have you been? Every other post I see on here or Twitter asks this question with monotonous regularity.

But these are short term costs. A 12.5% pay rise will cost us year on year.

Nobody seriously thinks a 12.5% increase is anything but fantasy. It’s a starting point with every expectation that it will be negotiated down to something realistic. I was taught you ask for twice as much as you want in the hope that you might get half of it. In this case it would be approximately 3%.

[quote OliviaPopeRules]**@VinylDetective
So tell us all then? How are they avoiding tax, what tax law would you bring is so they can't?
I think the fact you haven't got a clue is very obvious.[/quote]
By fiddling what counts as profit.

TomHardy
Yes but explain how them? Accounts are audited, tax returns are reviewed by HMRC. You really think they can't spot a massive company like Amazon 'fiddling profits'.

Agree. There is no money.

@OliviaPopeRules

TomHardy Yes but explain how them? Accounts are audited, tax returns are reviewed by HMRC. You really think they can't spot a massive company like Amazon 'fiddling profits'.

Oh bless. You really don't know very much about this stuff that you like to comment on, do you?

Doesn’t Amazon somehow divert all its UK profits through Luxembourg?

hannibal
Patronising much!
I have yet to get an answer to the question. Go on dazzle me with your knowledge.

As an NHS employee (nurse/midwife) of 20yrs I feel torn about this, it may not go down well but one thing I am very grateful for is job security. I know that I will never be out of a job and as much as I would welcome a payrise I think 12.5% makes us look ridiculous. I would never strike- the quality of care patients are receiving is already so poor.

@VinylDetective

Doesn’t Amazon somehow divert all its UK profits through Luxembourg?

I have no idea as I can't see their tax return, same as everyone else on here who insists they avoid tax. They have a UK branch that all UK sales go through, if not they would be caught by the diverted profits tax.

@OliviaPopeRules

hannibal Patronising much! I have yet to get an answer to the question. Go on dazzle me with your knowledge.

Maybe google is your friend? Look at how multinational companies work the rule so that they are supposed to pay their taxes only in countries that don't pay tax.

Maybe look at how most of the people in our government have all their investments offshore. Why do you think the UK is the world's centre of money laundering?

Or maybe don't try and comment on things that you have literally zero understanding of?

hannibal
Don't need to google thanks, I'm highly qualified in tax and regularly lecture on corporate tax. You stick to google though dear, sounds about your level.

@MeadowHay

Where was the money for furlough? For the benefits uplifts? For FSM throughout school holidays? For all the rates reliefs and so on that the government have put in through covid? Nobody was questioning where the money for that came from, but suddenly when it comes to NHS pay the money has suddenly ran out just before it comes to that? Odd.

Difference is covid is a one off. An unaffordable rise to nhs staff lasts forever more, every year, plus their increased pensions arising from increased wages.

The crazy thing about this is that every time I have sought medical care from the NHS in the last 3 years I have ended up having to go private. A lot of people end up doing this. If we could just get the care we need quickly people would not mind paying if they could afford it. Theres your extra wages.