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Where would the money come from to give all NHS staff a 12.5% pay rise?

267 replies

katieloves · 05/03/2021 19:57

I cannot begin to think where cuts would be made to fund this when the economy already is in the state it’s in. How would you fund it?

OP posts:
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WhoStoleMyCheese · 05/03/2021 23:40

@jakeee don’t get me wrong - despite the emotional tone of my post as the daughter of an NHS medical staff I’m aware of the importance of paperwork.
However a fair proportion of NHS jobs exist just because of the sheer volume of documents ... this could be avoided with proper IT systems... and despite all this things still get lost, jr drs spending ages ringing other hospitals for patient records etc.
Also being a support staff for the NHS is usually not harder than being an admin staff elsewhere - as pp have mentioned clerical staff have been able to WFH and have actually has less to do as non-essential appointments have been cancelled etc. In private companies people have lost their jobs, been juggling WFH + homeschooling , etc. With less pay and none of the generous pensions of the public sector. Also if you’re an accountant, project manager etc you can easily switch to a different industry if you want more money...but a lot of these people don’t want to. They want both the job security and the high pay.
Anyway I’m sure lots of posters will be along to contradict me in a minute but it’s a Friday night so I suggest you all get drunk first like I did, happy weekend :)

Ariela · 05/03/2021 23:45

Forgive me if I'm wrong on this, but in every job I've ever had no matter how tough a year or what's been thrown at me I've been paid a basic salary. Any pay increase I have been paid or have paid to employees I'm in charge of (in past corporate life) has either been inflation related or promotion, or commission or bonus based on performance, or overtime for extra hours.
Now to my mind anyone that has carried the can, worked hard, achieved good results gone the extra mile, gained new recognisable skills etc at their annual review I'd have the opportunity to move them up a peg on the pay scale to reflect their past year's work & achievements. Or to direct them to apply internally for post at a higher level elsewhere within the company I worked for, with my recommendation.

Are we sure this opportunity doesn't exist at annual review time to actually reward those hardworking frontline staff - after all if the NHS is being expanded as much as they say by extra nurses , doctors etc, one presumes the vast majority will be joining bottom rung, ergo there will need more of the promoted/ senior people to be in charge?

This would be the way I would imagine of directing the extra funds as rewarding the right people rather than those that haven't manned the covid wards - like the nice lady from the next village who queue jumped me at the takeaway by flashing her NHS card (she does a non-frontline admin role currently WFH) and took great pleasure in telling me how marvellous the takeaway is as she got 20% off. I didn't really need to know that.
But where do you draw the line? My friend's DH (I was dropping their takeaway in too) works frontline maintaining hospital facilities (non NHS), without him some facilities would have struggled, he has a NHS contractors pass - perhaps I should have sent him, only he was still working. He's had a pay cut as a lot of their other work has been cut (non NHS)

WhoStoleMyCheese · 05/03/2021 23:50

@Ariela has proved my point about people in non-frontline admin roles also being given special treatment as 'part of the NHS' - assuming this is one of those promotions for Covid as opposed to the normal NHS discount (which is just an employee perk like many private firms have)

IpreferInchyraBlue · 05/03/2021 23:52

Same place they found the money for Matt Hancock's mates and Dido fucking Harding.

WhoStoleMyCheese · 05/03/2021 23:52

also @Ariela kudos to your friends DH ...sadly the ones shafted are people like facilities maintainers/cleaners who have had to bear the brunt of all the iincreased covid cleaning etc... all no recognition as subcontracted to agencies/ contractors...

Ladylimpet · 05/03/2021 23:57

Jesus. The sooner this shower of shit are out of power, the better. How can the Tories really be expected to serve for the people? They haven't got a friggin clue about how most people live! I despair at all the bullshit going on.
They are just about serving themselves and their cronies. Anyone who can justify how much money they've thrown at test and trace (and looked at the people behind it), seriously need a fucking word with themselves. But it's ok, a clap for the NHS did the trick in keeping us all quiet and grateful. Shameless.

Recycledblonde · 05/03/2021 23:58

I’m a paramedic and actually don’t think I’m paid that badly (dons hard hat and scuttles for cover) I’m band 6 as I believe are all paramedics who have at least 2+ years experience, that means I earn £33k. I also get sick pay so didn’t have to worry when I got covid, and then when I had to isolate because my husband got it. I get overtime pay when my shifts overrun and most importantly, I have job security. I’m not worried I’ll lose my job and not be able to keep a roof over my head or be able to feed my family so, at the moment, I consider myself lucky. I know that nurses start on band 5(as do paramedics for the first 2 years) so are not as well paid.
I do think we have to be realistic at the moment and not lose the public goodwill by making outrageous demands, 12% is a huge pay rise and insulting to all the other key workers who don’t have the benefits and security we have.

adeleh · 05/03/2021 23:59

This is what I mean. Force the wealthy to pay their tax at 40% or45% like everyone else and shut down the schemes that allow them not to.

Where would the money come from to give all NHS staff a 12.5% pay rise?
Sparrowcrane · 06/03/2021 00:04

The money would come from the private sector tax payers pockets

MagnoliaXYZ · 06/03/2021 00:06

@caringcarer

Last April Hancock.wrote of the £15billion debt the NHS had run up. The debts our country has run up with furlough, self employed money scheme, Eat Out to Help Out, business grants and UC £20 per week is enormous and we as a country will probably spent 25 years+ paying it back. Our children and even our grandchildren will inherit this debt. Nurses have already been paid 12 percent pay rise over 3 years when others have only had 1 or 2 percent or even been.on pay freeze. This year public servants such as Police and Teachers and civil servants are on a pay freeze. Even MP's turned down their pay rise. Nurses get above average pay. I am not saying they don't deserve more, but others deserve more too. Care workers do a similar type of work but for minimum wage, supermarket workers face many different people every day, and warehouse workers work in warehouses and some with no ventilation. They worked hard through pandemic too but also are badly paid, often earning half the salary of nurses. Nurses can't have 12 percent pay rise because the country cannot afford it. They get decent final/average salary pensions. Many in the private sector are loosing their jobs and do not have anywhere near such good pensions. Once we can get economy back on track and if we can produce growth we can be more generous with pay awards then.
People seem to misunderstand (intentionally?) the last 3 year pay deal for NHS staff. It was for almost all NHS staff, not just nurses, as almost all NHS staff are on Agenda for Change contracts. The 12% claimed as the pay rise is simply not true. Some of the lowest paid staff (domestics, housekeepers), who were on Band 1 salaries, received a proportionally higher pay rise than most as Band 1 was abolished. A top Band 5 nurse (physio, paramedic, dietitian etc) in 2015 earned £28,180; this had increased to £30,615 last April - that is approximately 8.5%. For a top Band 6 nurse (or other health professional), the pay rise was less than that. For someone to be top of Band 5, that means they have been a registered nurse (dietitian, OT etc) for a minimum of 7 years. I haven't worked the pay rise out for each of the pay points. Nurses do not get final salary pensions, certainly not the majority of them. All NHS staff under a certain age were transferred to the 2015 pension which is a career average pension. I spent more than the first 10 years of my nursing career earning under £30,000. I believe that older NHS staff retiring about now are on pensions related to their average salary over the last three years (though could be wrong).

Whilst a 12.5% pay rise would be nice, I do think it is unrealistic. But, I agree that we as a country have managed to find a significant amount of money to pay people to sit at home for the last year (my friend was gloating as he has to carry annual leave over into the upcoming financial year as he hasn't needed to take any whilst on furlough). I get that it is not fair to leave people without any income, but likewise it isn't fair to have received pay to sit at home without working. Perhaps this money should have been loaned to people, interest-free, who were unable to work over the last year.

Other than raising the national minimum wage, the government cannot do anything about the pay of care workers, retail staff nor warehouse staff as they are employed by private companies.

adeleh · 06/03/2021 00:07

Somehow I’m rather more persuaded by George Turner than OliviaPope.

WannabemoreWeaver · 06/03/2021 00:07

*The government can print all the money it likes, and that is what it's been doing with furlough.

This clashes with its persistent narrative of running down/deriding the public sector and its espousal of austerity, a purely idoaloigical. not financial move.*

This.

MajesticWhine · 06/03/2021 00:08

If you freeze the pay of NHS managers but increase the pay for everyone else then who will want to take on the responsibility of management? Bear in mind that many managers in the NHS are clinical staff who have been promoted up a band.

Empressofthemundane · 06/03/2021 00:08

Agree the tax loopholes should be closed. Anyone on PAYE is actually paying their fair share, while others can pay themselves as dividends etc.

Giving the NHS a 12.5% pay rise would cost £6B.

The NHS is highly respected. They are getting a very small pay rise that keeps them above inflation while the rest of the public sector gets nothing, and many in the private sector have lost or will lose their jobs. The vast majority of NHS workers never set foot on a COVID ward.

adeleh · 06/03/2021 00:09

George Turner

Where would the money come from to give all NHS staff a 12.5% pay rise?
HannibalHayes · 06/03/2021 00:24

@OliviaPopeRules

hannibal Don't need to google thanks, I'm highly qualified in tax and regularly lecture on corporate tax. You stick to google though dear, sounds about your level.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
OliviaPopeRules · 06/03/2021 00:24

@adeleh

Somehow I’m rather more persuaded by George Turner than OliviaPope.
Believe what you like. If you really think HMRC would not collect extra tax from companies if it was easy then you are delusional. The OECD have brought in lots of new rules around profit shifting so I frankly don't believe the numbers being quoted in thy article.
ginandbearit · 06/03/2021 00:32

Ex nurse ..take all nursing staff in the nhs off the tax code and and have a flat rate 5% tax ( if that ) with loyalty bonuses and pension top ups every five or ten years .

LadyWithLapdog · 06/03/2021 01:01

Shake that money tree. The one Theresa May laughed in nurses faces about. Yet the scummy Tories got re-elected. Now they’re doing it again. This is so fucking depressing.

MazDazzle · 06/03/2021 01:14

I work in a school and half the time the heating is on full pelt, meanwhile it’s roasting outside. We have to open all of the windows and doors to generate a breeze. Apparently the heating is controlled from one central location. Wouldn’t it be better if each school could turn the heating off? Or even if the radiators had valves? Granted, it would involve some expense initially, but would surely save money in the long term.

I hate opening my classroom window whilst the radiator is on full, churning out heat. It makes me feel so guilty. What a waste of money!

mylobster · 06/03/2021 01:30

Eat the rich

LemonSwan · 06/03/2021 01:47

I have no idea how they are saying someone on dividends of 1 million is paying less tax than someone on 15 or 30k. It just doesnt make sense.

If I get 30k on PAYE my take home is 24,062.16
If I take 30k profit on my company my take home is 23565 if dividends.

If I get 100k on PAYE my take home is 66,689.16
If I get 100k of profit into dividends the take home is 68263

I hardly think its a difference to get worked up about tbh

OliviaPopeRules · 06/03/2021 02:14

@mylobster

Eat the rich
Best post on the thread 😂😂😂
T00dle · 06/03/2021 06:34

Why on earth should all NHS staff get a pay rise? Many were wfh and in no way on the front line any more than other front line workers and in some cases less.

Why can’t it just be nurses snd doctors with a better pay rise? There would be more money to fund it. Seems unfair funding hoards who don’t deserve it any more than many others causes those who do deserve it not to get it.

Sapho47 · 06/03/2021 06:36

@MeadowHay

Where was the money for furlough? For the benefits uplifts? For FSM throughout school holidays? For all the rates reliefs and so on that the government have put in through covid? Nobody was questioning where the money for that came from, but suddenly when it comes to NHS pay the money has suddenly ran out just before it comes to that? Odd.
Emergency borrowing for a year or two.

Unless you're planning on a 12% pay cut for the NHS soon then you're going to need to find that money every year forever