Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists

[FindTheTruth]

Am I being unreasonable to think that Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Some posts in this thread:
Page7 @teawamutu**
Women have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists.



I mean. What. The. Actual. Fucking. Fuck?
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Page 8 @ArabellaScott**

Locking women in a place they cannot escape from with intact male rapists.

It's like the worst dystopian fiction you've ever read.

And the UK govt okayed it.
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Page 11 @KeepPrisonsSingleSex**
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your support and interest for this very important case.
Live tweeted from court today and will attend remotely and live tweet again tomorrow.

The points that I took away from today's proceedings are as follows:



1. The 'old' policy on allocation of transgender prisoners (pre Karen White) allowed a degree of discretion re allocation of trans prisoners, including those with a GRC. The new & current one (at least in respect of TW with GRC) does not. (My take is that this now puts women at increased risk, whereas the revised policy should have protected women.)



1. Secretary of State for Justice when formulating the new policy post-Karen White stated that the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act do not apply to prisons. (My take is that if women's prisons are not a definitive example of a single-sex space, then what is?)



1. Before the new policy rolled out there was a 'consultation' with stakeholders including Fair Play and the Centre for Crime and Justice Studied. But evidence presented in court shows Minister had already agreed the new policy predicated on the opinion that single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Therefore this was not in fact a consultation, and none took place. The interests of women in prison were not represented. The evidence presented at that time by FPFW & CCJS was not considered: the decision had been made.



1. I am concerned that in November 2020, Lucy Frazer (Minister for Prisons) re-affirmed the correctness of the policy on allocation of transgender prisoners. This supports the previous Ministerial view that EA single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Yet in September 2020 Liz Truss gave clear statement affirming government commitment to single-sex spaces. Does this commitment extend to prisons or not? This is an important question that government needs to answer.

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Page 11 @ChazsBrilliantAttitude**
I was thinking of a prisons’ version of the Staniland question



“If John Warboys obtained a GRC should they be moved to a woman’s prison?”
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AIBU?
So ….are we hateful bigots on the women’s rights board for thinking Women shouldn’t be locked up with intact male rapists?

Terrifying. I've lurked on the FWR board for a few years watching this issue gain more ground and there was a poster who looked at all the implications of the TWAW narrative. When she looked at every step of it, eg: (real example from mine) workplace puts out gender neutral policy, leads to using pronouns, leads to neutral toilets, leads to including men on panel looking specifically at women's issues in the workplace, etc etc, when you add another 100 "leads to's" you end up with women being afraid to protest for their rights because the end risk is that they end up locked in a room with a man.

And now here we are.

Yanbu.

No need to put the female prisoners at risk but they do. If twaw then logically a room of tw is a room of women.

It’s a disgusting way to treat female prisoners, people who tend to be the most vulnerable members of society. Overwhelmingly they are already victims of abuse and then we literally lock them up with sex offenders.

I heard the other day that if all the men who have applied for a gender recognition certificate were moved to the women’s prisons then it would increase the ‘female’ prison population by 150%

It’s disgusting that people in positions of privilege shit on vulnerable women for woke cookies, knowing that they will never be in the position of being locked up with a fully be-penised male with nowhere to escape to.

Women don't matter.

Male sexual violence is the problem.

This is the crux of the issue. This is why single sex spaces are important for women. It is also why most Transwomen want to access women's spaces. But to accommodate them, we risk more sexual violence against women.

It is outrageous that male sexual violence is the issue here and yet women are the ones expected to give up rights and protections.

As a woman I have been subject to sexual harassment more times than I can remember and sexual violence on more than one occasion. However, my views that single sex spaces need to be preserved is trans phobic and extreme?

Men need to stop raping women. Men need to stop killing women. Men need to stop killing transwomen.

The solution is not to try and protect the Transwomen by risking the women.

We need to fix the men.

Just to let you know cat, rise and astra, your comments made me take in a sharp breath and literally bought tears to my eyes. I really do believe that most people are good and reasonable and that the rights of all people need to be balanced. And when it comes to safeguarding, the most vulnerable in our society need a voice and all people need to be heard when making laws and policy. The fake 'consultations' in government by policy makers are harming us. I've found that when people get in a room and talk and are heard and there's a genuine desire to balance the rights of all, anything is possible. but right now? it's not happening. It hurts everyone.

We need to fix the men

and until they're fixed, I wish policy makers would acknowledge that you need categories to be inclusive. TWAW isn't inclusive when it removes the rights of W in policy. both groups W & TW have rights but combining them removes the rights of one group - W.

For anyone new to this debate, transwomen placed in women’s prisons have already been removed and placed back in the male estate after sexually assaulting women (Karen White, convicted of new offences which occurred in prison, and Paris Green, moved after having consensual and non consensual intercourse with female inmates). Placing women in mixed prison accommodation is in breach of the Geneva Convention. For every woman that thinks it is unkind to object, that TWAW and we should be kind and as inclusive as possible, I ask: where is your compassion for other women?

Of course they shouldn’t but this is where #nodebate and #bekind gets you coupled with hundreds of institutions indoctrinated into Stonewall law

If you can’t discuss the sexed impact of a policy because TWAW then you can’t work through the potential problems that could arise and how to address them.

TW are TW and need their own spaces separate from women

And stonewall need to keep their incorrect teaching on the Equality Act out of the public sector

I'd like to hear from the person who thinks it's OK to lock women up with in tact males...

Women do not exist to solve mens/males problems

Rapes are being recorded as female crimes. As are all assaults and other offences committed by transwomen.

As a result female crime, especially violent crime or sexual assault, is on a sharp rise.

Except it's not us is it.

#thesearenotourcrimes

We need to fix the men

C'mon, I think neutering is a bit over the top, don't you?

I just want to put this here, to really spell out more of the problem:
www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-42221629

When the BBC investigated thus issue, they found that there were 125 transgender prisoners, of whom 60 had convictions for sexual offences, including 27 with a conviction of rape.

So very nearly half of transgender inmates are convicted sex offenders, compared with 19% of the prison population as a whole.

To me, that clearly suggests that allowing trans inmates to be housed in the female prison estate provides a pathway that can be deliberately exploited by men who wish to access vulnerable women.

The thing about this debate that I rarely see mentioned is that currently men are at much higher risk of being raped in prison, including trans prisoners in male prisons. That's not ok either.

The solution obviously isn't to move that risk to women. Maybe rapists should all be dumped in a pit somewhere.

For anyone new to this issue is worth remembering that women aren't just begging not to be locked up with male rapists, they are already are and several have been raped or sexually assaulted already.
This isn't some pie in the sky moral panic based fear-mongering. This is happening.

J the claimant in today's judicial review was sexually assaulted by a male in women's prison because the Ministry of Justice said that the Equality Act exemptions don't apply to women in prison. This is not true, the Equality Act does apply but the MoJ chooses not to use the protections it offers.

To put some perspective though - sorry for trying to be objective here - women can already be housed in special facilities at a men's prison if there's not suitable facilities at women's prisons. All prison moves for being transgender are at the discretion of the system and not taken lightly. Within the women's prison system there are segregated facilities already (even those with xx chromosomes do commit heinous crimes!)

Which just shows that those who identify women can remain in the male estate.

So why transfer to womens prisons if the facilities within the mens prisons can accommodate women..

Who on earth are the 3% who think vulnerable woman should be confined with men? Shame on you 3%. I appreciate the women are in prison as they are criminals and have wronged society it some way but come on, no one deserves that fear of being locked up with known male rapists

@CrayonInThreeBits

We need to fix the men

C'mon, I think neutering is a bit over the top, don't you?

To prevent rapists reoffending? Would probably be a popular policy actually.

This is absolutely shocking and we need to talk about it much more. When I tell people irl what's happening, they simply don't believe me. It's quite incredible that women's needs are so completely ignored by the prison service.

Great, then TW prisoners can stay in male prisons if they have these special facilities

That’s part of the problem Dressing when you tell people, it sounds so mad they think you’re making it up
“Of course no one would house a rapist in a female prison, that can’t be happening”

I don't think you are quite up to speed with the facts @minniemoocher. As pointed out by OP , allocation to the female estate is automatic.

and to add a further fact- the MOJ have a blanket policy not to put trans men in the male prison estate because they can't keep them safe. But magically trans women are safe to put in the female prison estate! It's just so appallingly misogynistic and shows a total contempt for women's rights. We must never allow self-id and the police, criminal justice system and ministry of justice must be forced to record biological sex and segregate prisoners by sex.

This issue highlights how little women are thought about by those in power. It’s horrifying.